Comment by yazaddaruvala | Hacker News Reader

Comment by yazaddaruvala | Hacker News Reader

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It might not be truly zero-cost, but as a safe FFI it is efficient. Meanwhile, does it really matter?

For any C++ project to integrate Rust the motivation would have to be:

- The Rust code is specifically needed for the long-term.

- The FFI-boundary is temporary (i.e. always moving) as more of the C++ is migrated to Rust. Ideally, checkpointing the migration at optimal FFI boundaries. As such, any "in-efficient" checkpoint should be cleaned up "soon", and dev speed is more valuable from an FFI than perfectly zero-cost.

- If for any reason a C++ project integrates Rust in a way that is permanently through an FFI (I can't understand why - maybe there is a really good crate or something), then the development costs to use the unsafe non-ergonomic FFI are worth the effort for this unique situation.

Very similar logic applies for any Rust project that integrates with a C++ library for the long term. If the team just needs a C++ library for the short term, the efficiency likely also doesn't matter much.

The motivations in claims unfortunately don't apply to my case:

1. FFI boundary will likely to exist forever in a milions-of-line C++ codebase, especially when the behavior of this system is not possible to be formally specified / tested (e.g., depending on an unknown external system, or some behaviors specified in hundreds of pages "specs" full of jargons)

2. In the above case, when C++ code dominates the FFI cost would be signified as you need to call C++ routines frequently to achieve stuffs. For example, when every struct has some methods returning std::string the std::string needs to be targeted.

In our case, the primary motivation of Rust isn't its safety - we just use it for syntax sugars and ease of extensions (with proc macros).

> In our case, the primary motivation of Rust isn't its safety - we just use it for syntax sugars and ease of extensions (with proc macros).

Fair enough, but then "CXX — ***safe*** FFI between Rust and C++" (emphasis mine) is just not the right library for you, and that is totally ok. It has a niche and your usecase is different, both the library and your usecase are in "the right".

> The motivations in claims unfortunately don't apply to my case:

Is this situation different than what I called out earlier?

> - If for any reason a C++ project integrates Rust in a way that is permanently through an FFI (I can't understand why - maybe there is a really good crate or something), then the development costs to use the unsafe non-ergonomic FFI are worth the effort for this unique situation.

> If for any reason a C++ project integrates Rust in a way that is permanently through an FFI, then the development costs to use the unsafe non-ergonomic FFI are worth the effort for this unique situation.

I don't follow this train of thought; could you elaborate? Why would I want more unsafe code in my project because it's going to be there for longer? If anything I'd want the opposite -- longevity of the unsafe code being a reason against wanting more of it sitting around.

FWIW the primary use case of CXX in my work codebase is in long term hybrid-Rust-C++ projects in which dozens of libraries using CXX (in both directions) are going to be around for many years.

Basically, the grandparent poster was inferring "CXX is not worth using because its not perfectly zero-cost".

Like with any premature optimization, I was just pointing out that perfectly zero-cost is not always the goal i.e. if it is short lived code, don't worry about the inefficiency in the FFI.

If the FFI code is going to be long lived, and the team has followed all of the rules for optimization (i.e. measure, profile, etc) and CXX cannot support the performance they need, then in this very unique situation CXX might not be the right tool for the job. Instead it can sometimes be a good decision to write custom unsafe code, abstract it, validate it, write tests for it, basically spend X weeks of dev effort on making the custom unsafe code "safe" with the knowledge that it's an investment for the long term.

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