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You are seriously conflating "social anxiety disorder" and "introversion." The idea that a concert would "drain you so much it will be hard to enjoy" or that an introvert would have a tough time interacting with a group long enough to go on a rock climbing trip is essentially saying that an introverted person is somehow handicapped, or pushed to their introversion by a type of mental disorder.

I identify as an introvert. I like thinking about mind, experience, truth, math, language, etc. I don't have a social anxiety disorder or any other type of anxiety disorder, so I'm not afraid to join a rock climbing group or any other type of group. I go dancing. I make small talk. These things can be introverted activities, if you make them.

My M.O. with respect to social situations seems to be "create comfort zone -> expand comfort zone." Since I'm an introvert, I tend to bring people into my world rather than go into theirs.

That being said, I vastly prefer spending time with one person whom I really like to a bunch of people who I vaguely like. I also hate carnivals.

Word.

You are seriously conflating "social anxiety disorder" and "introversion." The idea that a concert would "drain you so much it will be hard to enjoy" or that an introvert would have a tough time interacting with a group long enough to go on a rock climbing trip is essentially saying that an introverted person is somehow handicapped, or pushed to their introversion by a type of mental disorder.

Yep, that's exactly my point. The label has been embraced as a way to put a positive spin on social anxiety. I don't necessarily think it's a good way to use the word, but on the other hand, I'm not sure it's accurate to call someone like you who is able to enjoy himself and interact fluently with groups of people an "introvert." The traditional use of the word seems more in line with the idea of an introvert as someone who has an aversion to social interaction rather than a simple preference for other uses of time. Naturally people tend to rationalize, so it's hard to tell.

By the way, I think it's healthy and not entirely unjustified to put a positive spin on social anxiety. Most of my abilities and good qualities come from the time I've spent alone. I just don't think it's sustainable to be in complete denial about it.

You're still doing it. Introversion is not social anxiety. I am categorically an introvert. I do not suffer in the slightest from social anxiety - I'm perfectly comfortable in crowds and most social situations. What you're doing in this comment and the one above is simply displaying ignorance of what introversion means. And just because most laypeople have an inaccurate idea of what the word "introverted" means does not mean that it doesn't have a fairly well-defined technical meaning.

I'm not ignorant of what you think introversion is. I learned it reading your first comment. Like I said elsewhere, the argument here is about what the word actually means. Jung says introverts experience emotional drain when they're around other people, so by his definition, if you are comfortable being around large groups of people for any length of time, then you are not an introvert. Instead of just insisting that I accept your definition of the word, try persuading me.

It isn't my definition. There's a fairly coherent consensus view of the salient points of the intro/extra dichotomy. You're distorting it. For example, the first half of your sentence beginning "Jung" is correct, but the second half is gross exaggeration. Other people aren't Kryptonite. That's what's wrong with your top post as well - it's full of exaggeration which misrepresents introversion.

There's been plenty written on the topic, including the linked article, which you seem to reject.

There's a fairly coherent consensus view of the salient points of the intro/extra dichotomy

Not at all. First of all, introversion was a concept long before psychologists started to get technical with it. Second, its appeal as a psychological concept is mostly to laymen like us, and it certainly isn't used in any technical sense when people write blog posts about how great introverts are. So even without citing any disagreements among psychologists, there's a question of whether we should go with a some psychologist's technical meaning or the meaning in popular usage. In popular usage, you can see disagreement here on this page.

One way to see how a word is used is Google:

http://philosophy.lander.edu/ethics/jung.html: "Weakness of the introverted attitude includes ... (1) a lack confidence in relation to people and things and (2) a tendency to be unsociable, shy, and hesitant." Don't worry, his list of weaknesses for extraversion is bigger ;-)

http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/genpsytraits.html: "The more obvious aspects of introversion are shyness, a distaste for social functions, and a love of privacy."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraversion_and_introversion: "Introversion does not describe social discomfort but rather social preference: an introvert may not be shy but may merely prefer less social activities." Good ol' Wikipedia, the voice of the people ;-)

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/introvert: "1. a shy person. 2. Psychology . a person characterized by concern primarily with his or her own thoughts and feelings ( opposed to extrovert)." Funny how dictionaries list multiple definitions for words. Clearly they're all wrong except one!

Here's a nice quote from Jung himself about the "extreme" introvert (gathered from this page: http://www.infj.com/INFJ_Introversion.htm): "In a large gathering he feels lonely and lost. The more crowded it is, the greater becomes his resistance. He is not in the least 'with it,' and has no love of enthusiastic get-togethers. He is not a good mixer. What he does, he does in his own way, barricading himself against influences from outside. . . . Under normal conditions he is pessimistic and worried, because the world and human beings are not in the least good but crush him. . . ."

Wow, that's a downer. You'll find more ammunition for yourself than for me on that page, though, as apparently psychologists have tried to empirically distinguish shyness, introversion, neuroticism, embarrassability, public shyness, private shyness, and sociability. Naturally in order to fit all those in as distinct concepts they've had to define them quite narrowly as aspects of personality instead of sticking to the broader idea of introversion as a "type."

However, on that page the immediate followup to the Jung quote I quoted (not by Jung, and possibly not referring to his views) is this: "In less extreme cases, introverts are simply more conservative than not, preferring the familiar surroundings of home and intimate times with a few close friends; they husband their energy and would rather stay put than go from place to place."

I think that characterization would be contested as well. So no, there is no coherent consensus. You can see all over this page as well that many of the arguments made here take the same form: accept my definition of "introvert", and my conclusions follow naturally. So the real argument is about the meaning of the word.

There's been plenty written on the topic, including the linked article, which you seem to reject.

I may be missing a better link elsewhere on the page, but the only "article" I see is one person's biased top-ten list inspired by a self-help book. You'll see a big difference between the Google results for introversion and the results for extro- or extraversion. There's a whole lot of boosterism and self-help content for introversion, but not for extroversion. I like some of it, but honestly, I think most of it can be ignored. We should know when we're being pandered to.

Ah, how wonderful that I'm downvoted when I go to the trouble of locating quotes and providing links to prove something as obvious as the fact that people disagree about what introversion is.

"In a large gathering he feels lonely and lost. The more crowded it is, the greater becomes his resistance. He is not in the least 'with it,' and has no love of enthusiastic get-togethers. He is not a good mixer. What he does, he does in his own way, barricading himself against influences from outside. ... Under normal conditions he is pessimistic and worried, because the world and human beings are not in the least good but crush him. ..."

Thanks for this quote. I feel that all of the discussion here of how being an introvert is a quirky personality trait and a fun expression of human diversity makes a mockery of people with social anxiety.

--- guy who never left his home between 2004 and 2008

introversion was a concept long before psychologists started to get technical with it.

I believe that's wrong; the term was introduced by Jung in Psychological Types and thus originates as a technical concept in psychology.

The term "introversion" was introduced by Jung as describing a particular condition that pre-existed. He originates the term but not introversion itself which is extent but (possibly) unlabelled. (Aside: It usually turns out with these things that others had labelled it but not popularised their encapsulation of the concept or failed to be as encompassing or thorough - not sure if this is true here though.)

I think the real problem you have is with the loose use of the word "concept" by the parent.

The term "introversion" dates to the 17th century.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/introversion

Yes it seems that Jung possibly coined extroversion (from a little further reading) but that the specific use of introversion was popularised by him. If you re-read my sentence I'm actually saying that the term was "introduced to describe a particular condition" and not that this was the first use: presumably the prior use was related to physical introversion?

I was assuming the presentation in the parent to apply a reductio style argument without establishing the verity of his premise. My pedantry must be wearing off or something.

That's like saying Shakespeare knew about concurrent programming because he used the word "thread".

Let's see a usage of "introvert" before Jung that has anything to do with personality types.

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22introvert%22&tbs=bks:1...

You'd do better with "introverted" or "introversion" with some terms excluded to filter out some of the results.

Wordsworth, "The Excursion", 1814:

  --Nor deem that his mild presence was a weight
  That pressed upon his brother's house; for books
  Were ready comrades whom he could not tire;                
  Of whose society the blameless Man
  Was never satiate. Their familiar voice,
  Even to old age, with unabated charm
  Beguiled his leisure hours; refreshed his thoughts;
  Beyond its natural elevation raised
  His __introverted__ spirit; and bestowed
  Upon his life an outward dignity
  Which all acknowledged. The dark winter night,
  The stormy day, each had its own resource;
  Song of the muses, sage historic tale,                      
  Science severe, or word of holy Writ
  Announcing immortality and joy
  To the assembled spirits of just men
  Made perfect, and from injury secure.
  --Thus soothed at home, thus busy in the field,
  To no perverse suspicion he gave way,
  No languor, peevishness, nor vain complaint:
  And they, who were about him, did not fail
  In reverence, or in courtesy; they prized
  His gentle manners: and his peaceful smiles,              
  The gleams of his slow-varying countenance,
  Were met with answering sympathy and love.

More with "introverted":

http://books.google.com/books?id=IFwCAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA545&#...

Again here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=q1VIAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA181&#...

And here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=q1VIAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA181&#...

Similar usage here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=AnMPAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA217&#...

Check out the definition of introversion at the top of the page in this dictionary: "The set of introverting, or the state of being introverted; a turning or direction inward, physical or mental."

http://books.google.com/books?id=bLkCAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA3166&...

Another dictionary:

http://books.google.com/books?id=ovhOAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA2722&...

Not really relevant to your question since the usage is different, but interesting nonetheless, since it includes not only introversion but extroversion as well, predating Jung by a century and showing that people can be quite flexible about how they understand words like these:

http://books.google.com/books?id=OJEPAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA9&...

Good catch.

I've noticed that most extroverts think like this. People who are extroverted usually have problems understanding what being introverted is like, and usually just see it as a different label to give social anxiety a more socially acceptable image, since it seems it's easier to understand for them. They assume everybody is an extrovert, just like them, but some people just feel social anxiety and call themselves extroverts. What you call "the traditional use" seems to me like the traditional misconception about introverts.

I'm an introvert myself, and I don't feel social anxiety. I grew up thinking I was shy, since my introversion seemed to be traditionally and socially identified with shyness, but at one point I realized I didn't feel social anxiety at all. It actually seemed to me that extrovert were much more worried about social situations and how they were perceived socially than me.

I don't try to explain my introversion to extroverts because I've noticed most of them don't get it. This makes it hard to use as an excuse, or even as a reasonable reason for your behaviour. I get dragged to social situations sometimes because extroverted people just assume I'll have fun if I just relax a bit, and sometimes I accept because I don't want to be rude. The result is I don't feel anxious or anything like that, I just get bored fast and want to go home soon. If I were actually interested in some activity being an introvert wouldn't get in the way, because being interested in it would keep my interest. It's just that social activities don't usually keep my interest for too long. They just feel like a boring waste of time to me, not something that makes me anxious.

This doesn't mean I don't enjoy social situations sometimes. I enjoy parties and concerts and stuff like that. I'm just the kind of guy who leaves the party early with some kind of excuse, not because of social anxiety, but because I'm starting to get tired and bored with the whole thing. I don't ever use "I'm an introvert" as an excuse, since I know people will not get it. I don't use it and I don't see other people use it to explain why they do certain things or don't do other things.

> I identify as an introvert.

But are you an introvert?

There's a difference between self-identification and scientific observation.

"But are you an introvert?"

Self-assessment (PDF): http://hiddengiftsoftheintrovertedchild.com/SelfAssessment.p...

You are seriously conflating "social anxiety disorder" and "introversion."

This is actually LOL because when Jung coined the terms, he meant them to refer to ones relationship with the outside world. A person who explores the world alone is an extrovert, because he looks at the world outside himself. A person who is always surrounded by friends but always worries what they think is an introvert; he's looking inwards.

Jung didn't coin the word "introvert;" it's much older than that. He coined "extravert" as its opposite. Also, one of the ways Jung defined introversion and extraversion was in terms of the flow of "psychic energy": an introvert is someone whose energy is sapped by being around other people.

I didn't know there was a name for what I experienced. Energy drain. This is exactly how I feel it. There is no anxiety involved in it, at least not conscously. I sometime assumed it was like a very mild form of autism with the associated intelliegence excess in some domains. All the neurones we didn't waste on social processing are used in other competence.

     "What, you don't want to go to the Nicki Minaj 
     concert?" "Let me explain. You see, I'm an   
     introvert...."

I'm an introvert as some people classify them and I certainly wouldn't say that. I'm far more likely to say something along the lines of: "I'm pretty tired right now and just want to get some rest. Maybe next time. Thanks for asking though."

It's not that I don't like going to concerts. It's really more about whether I feel up to it or not. Most of the time I do since I have plenty of time to recharge during my regular schedule.

    I know that once in a while I do like smalltalk, and 
    when I think about it my ability to enjoy a social 
    situation has more to do with my mood going into it than 
    the situation itself. I get bored when I'm not engaged, 
    and I have difficulty engaging with people because 
    anxiety and stress make me shut down.

My wife who is quite a bit different in this matter than me is cheered up by a social event when she's feeling down. I on the other hand feel worse after a social event when I'm feeling down.

    If you're introverted and want some of the benefits of 
    extroversion, such as a bigger social network for 
    locating jobs and meeting women, or if you discover that 
    you really enjoy a hobby that has a large incidental but 
    unavoidable social component, then you're supposed to 
    realize those things are "just not you" and go home and 
    read a book.

I have no idea where you got this idea from. I don't know any introverts who think like this. They simply do what they want to do and pay whatever price they want to pay. Maybe they need some extra down time later because they went to a week long event with lots of people. Most of them are just fine with that.

Someone can be an introvert without being maladjusted or having an anxiety disorder.

Bravo! When I found the introvert definition I didn't feel like I was locking myself into an "introverted identity" box. I was discovering that many other people feel the same way that I do, and it was incredibly liberating.

Even though I identify as being introverted, people are usually surprised when I say that I'm introverted. They feel like I am sociable and even extroverted.

A few years ago I gave myself a hard time about it-- why couldn't I keep up with social scenes like others could? Why do parties always burn me out? Identifying as an introvert has explained these facets, and given me the understanding to overcome them when I need to.

Ok, so I upvoted you, but maaan do you have it wrong.

I am the definition of introversion (to myself, avoid crowds, do not need to chat with everyone at the party, content with silence that others think is awkward, definitely do not want to ever be the center of attention, like to be alone with my thoughts ...)

"What, you don't want to go to the Nicki Minaj concert?" "Let me explain. You see, I'm an introvert...."

I have been to concerts by myself just because my friends do not like Coldplay, or would not pay a hundred to watch Jay Z, or just wanted to be out of the house. Guess what? I always had a blast.

I have been to the movies alone. My ex girlfriend used to hate me for this one. So now I do not tell anyone I date when I need a freaking night alone at the theather. It's my dirty little secret.

I go clubbing mostly by myself because my friends like to go to places I do not like. On top of that I am shy, but boy do I talk to girls. "It takes one man to talk to girls", you do not need a wingman to talk to girls. You only need a nice smile, and attitude.

I do not like hiking, true, but I do take shorts trips in remote places where it would be advisable to have someone with you. I prefer to do this alone. Danger or not.

I do not like smalltalk, because it is just that smalltalk, but I understand society deals with me as I am so I make an effort to deal with society as it is, hence I do the smalltalk in order to find something that may appeal. You almost always find it within a minute.

EDIT: Introvert does not mean antisocial.

Don't you think that you're just arguing semantics? There's little objective argument to be made when the two of you have different definitions for the same word.

90% of all disagreements between human beings derive from semantic confusion :)

It could be, but his points are rather extreme, like "If you are introverted, you won't be doing this because it requires other people for you to enjoy it"

If you can approach girls at a club by yourself, you're not shy. That doesn't make sense.

I run marathons, but I'm not athletic. See the contradiction?

No, it's more like "I cannot swim, but if I want to eat I have to get to the other side of the lake".

And yet he's presumably able to pull these girls, in a wild extroverted setting like a club, where a girl is rarely alone, and competition is fierce.

So he can't swim, but when he needs to get to the other side of the lake, he beats Michael Phelps.

No, you got it wrong. Noone said anything about my success rate, which is laughable. I am just saying I am introverted, and shy but I do talk to women. Yes, competition is there, but what should I do instead? Cry about my inability to be a social butterfly.

First off, I want to say I'm on your side. I've got nothing but good things to say about you getting out there and making an effort. So ultimately this is just a semantic argument. I still think you've overcome "shy" if you can approach in a club. Inverted, sure, but not shy. Regardless, semantic arguments really are the worst kind, so I'm letting this one go. Keep fighting the good fight.

You could be right, maybe I am "overcoming" my shyness.

shyness is not introversion. Not wanting to be in a group of people when talking to a girl one on one might be a sign of introversion.

It's more like - I run (and win at) marathons, but I can't do relay races because it throws my game off.

I never claimed it was. I'd believe an introvert can approach girls at a club, but I feel like being able to do that basically means you're not shy. Otherwise, what does shy mean? You had a small bit of anxiety doing so? Doesn't everyone? Even my most outgoing friends have things like the "3 second rule" to get over approach anxiety.

I have been to concerts by myself ... I have been to the movies alone.

yep, me too. I find there's a huge difference, to do with what's expected of you. At a movie or a concert, there's no requirement for social interaction, so it takes a lot less energy than, say a party at someone's house. The presence of lots of other people does not in itself make the situation tiring. In fact it can feel liberating to be there but not have any expectations put upon you.

Of course there are trade-offs to being introverted: No backpacking trip, but also no needing to be around people you don't care about.

You can also say that the preference of introversion is inconvenient - the fact that you don't like hanging out with these semi-arbitrary people "prevents" you from having fun. To take that to the extreme, it would be pretty convenient to always be unconditionally happy.

eh. Been backpacking plenty of times by myself (as well as with other people).

EDIT: I do understand it's just an example and there are indeed some activities that need to be done in groups and would often, in practice, be done in groupls of people you don't know or don't know well. But there are also lots of typically multi-person activities that you certainly can do by yourself.

I do lots of solo travel, partially because I'm often traveling solo on business. I find a lot of people cant conceive of heading off by themselves for a weekend or longer, especially in a foreign country.

I think it's more of a different perspective.

For example, for the same question "What, you don't want to go to the Nicki Minaj concert?"

An introverted response might be "Hey I really like that kind of music - I just don't want to go with a bunch of people I don't know that well, having to coordinate rides, having idle chit chat, etc. So I'll probably go on my own, and if I run into you guys, that's great. But if I don't run into you guys, hope you have a good time there."

In no way does being introverted mean "staying at home and read a book" or not enjoying life, etc.

And the rock climbing example, why couldn't you rock climb on your own? That seems like a stupid question, but my first instinct as an introvert would just be to go tackle a big cliff on my own - cause I don't really want to meet a bunch of macho folks that I don't know - you know, people do climb K2 on their own, even though it's dangerous, it makes the accomplishment even more intense.

I've done 60 km-100km bike rides in the dark, in the middle of the night, on my own - just so I don't have to talk to people - so I kinda know what it feels like.

Well, at least he's not blaming a withdrawn personality on an actual disorder, like Asperger's.

He's just saying that some people may be introverts, with a certain type of personality, and that's it. There's nothing wrong with being a type.

There's nothing wrong with being a type.

That's apparently the real topic of this discussion: whether there's something "wrong" with being an introvert. That's why people are arguing in favor of defining introversion in purely neutral or even purely positive terms, and that's the motivation of the link posted and its source. It's an attempt to paint introversion as a perfectly unproblematic state of being for the introvert. The only people who see a problem with it are extroverts, who just don't get it.

Anything that one-sided is only good for propaganda or cheerleading. If we're going to talk about types and stereotypes, why not be balanced? Why not see things in terms of strengths and weaknesses? There are downsides to introversion, even for the introvert (unless you define away those downsides by changing the meaning of the word.) At some point the introvert will wish he could thrive on the company of others, if only for practical reasons such as the ones I described above. At some point the extrovert, too, will wish he could thrive without the company of others. Pity the extrovert who has to stay home in a quiet house for two weeks tending a sick child! Our "type" or "tendency" or "preference" can be a very inconvenient thing when it conflicts with what we want or need to do.

The problem with strengths and weaknesses is weakness, of course. Nobody wants to admit to it.

Wow, seriously great comment.