A growing number of people are eschewing soap (2019) | Hacker News Reader

A growing number of people are eschewing soap (2019)

theguardian.com

29 pointsTomte74 comments

Of the few people I've worked with IRL that proclaim they don't shower and insist they don't need to, all of them have an unpleasant odor to others. I also remember this one guy that does shower but only with water and never any soap and he always had a metallic or copper residual smell (maybe from sweat?) that was very off putting.

The issue many don't account for is olfactory fatigue: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olfactory_fatigue

It's similar to people with bad breath not being aware that others can smell their bad breath.

Maybe there are some folks with a natural body chemistry that can rinse with just water but I've never met a real example of this.

There is a literature on hunter-gatherers who wash infrequently but do not smell. The phenomenon exists.

The differences in lifestyle are so numerous, though, that it isn't really understood what's going on.

The theories I know there are centered on different compositions of skin bacteria. Sweat is decomposed over time by certain bacteria, producing a characteristic "old sweat" smell. People you interact with can transfer some of their skin bacteria to you, equalizing smell within a social group. Environmental factors such as use of soap, clothes, UV radiation on the skin and nutrition also influence which bacteria are able to live on your skin. So it sounds entirely plausible that there are populations of humans that do not smell, even without washing.

But I agree that this is far from settled from what I've read.

I expect that if someone stumbles on a true "fix" for body odor, it'll involve inoculation of better microbes, from live soil maybe (many animals love to roll in dirt for some reason), and then avoiding killing those microbes. Also finding a diet that creates less odor for you. Maybe always rinsing off sweat as soon as it shows up. And so on.

But not that you simply stop washing and keep living as normal.

> But not that you simply stop washing and keep living as normal.

Eh, it's worked in the past. Japanese encountering Europeans for the first time recorded their complaints about the Europeans' odor. This was presumably not an issue for the Europeans among themselves.

If everyone stopped washing, there wouldn't be an odor problem. There would be odors, but they wouldn't be a problem. Why is that worse than the "washing" mode?

Because you’d rather people not in your social group not smell foul to you. The “con guy” stereotype is real and it’s quite unpleasant.

Isn't it odd that Europeans didn't complain about Japanese odor?

No, why would it be? We're stipulating that the Europeans had an odor the Japanese didn't. But how was that a problem for the Europeans?

I mean, it sounds like the Japanese objectively did not smell bad. You also hear about the Latin Americans complain about the stench of Columbus and his crew. Was it just the stench of sailors, or did these cultures know a fix?

I was in no soap mode for a year, had to quit because other people would notice my light odor and, those close to me, would call it out. It was simply out of the social norm.

Still, I loved it. I liked my odor, and I like or dislike others body odors, they are signals and part of what we perceive of someone. What I can't handle are perfumes and cosmetic smells. When the elevator was used by the oldspice, shaving cream, half bottle perfume neighbor I can't go afterwards. The 30 secs trip is too much for my nose and palate. I would rather have the sweaty after gym smell. Perfumes are like masks.

I would really like to go around smelling like me. I also have a big nose.

> people would notice my light odor and, those close to me, would call it out

I do not know nearly enough about this situation to make a judgement and can only talk about my environment, but if anyone, close or not, would comment on my looks or odor then none of them would ever think of the term "light". I've worked with homeless people, and it takes a lot for most to mention rather touchy subjects like this - exactly because a person's life circumstances are such a sensitive and private matter.

The only smell I absolutely cannot stand is the smell of cigarettes and people who just smoked one. Perfumes, sweat, strong body odor, who cares, it's not my body. But cigarette smell makes me want to avoid you like the plague. It's just too piercing to ignore.

Absolutely - pointing out that somebody smells is hugely awkward. You have to smell really bad for people to get over that awkwardness and tell you.

I do not smoke and I cannot stand cigarette smoke, but pipe smells so good. Not sure how it's smoke smells on clothes though.

Have you tried unperfumed products? I would assume in your situation that you've considered them, you can't make that elevator guy use them but they might help you out.

I rarely use perfume either, and not too fond of it, but I do shower mostly daily, with unscented shower oil.

Have you tried something like this?

https://incidecoder.com/products/eucerin-calming-body-wash-d...

It's as effective as a regular soap, but my skin is much less dry.

You can use natural olive oil soap and unscented deodorants and continue smelling like you.

People tend to think that all soap are same, but I only use olive oil soap made by people I know personally and use no shampoo.

Add some deodorant and presto. Healthy, natural and clean.

Repeating something I've read on the internet: there are people who lack the sweat glands which produce the kind of sweat that stinks. It's a somewhat rare genetic mutation. Their sweat is basically almost only water. They can wear the same shirt for a week and the shirt, after drying up, is as if they was just washed!

I am that anomaly. I change my shirt twice a week, not because it smells but because it gets dirty from the environment (spills, rubbing against something etc).

It takes about 7 days of no showers to have a noticeable smell. However I prefer showering daily or every other day because I enjoy taking a shower at the end of the day.

I also don't need deodorant. I used it once as a teen and saw no purpose for it.

I’ve had many people tell me that have this special mutation. They all stunk.

I suppose it is possible and I’m around them all the time without knowing. But I’ve probably encountered 30 people who said this and it’s kind of an odd thing to mention to coworker or classmate or casual friend. But they all had an unpleasant odor. Aside from maybe 1-2 close friends I never argued with them or confronted them, but thought it was funny how they would go out of their way to say they don’t stink but they actually do.

Helps remind me that I’m probably wrong about many things I deeply believe are right.

How do you meet 30 people who, apropos nothing, change the conversation to them not stinking? Do you live in some hotbed of weirdness? (like San Francisco perhaps).

I’m old and have met thousands of people. I’d say I’ve had at least an hour long conversation with at least a thousand people through dinners, classes, parties, work, etc

I certainly don’t change the conversation to this topic and that’s why I’ve noted that I think it’s odd that 30 people would mention how they don’t need to wear deodorant due to their lack of stinking.

The annoying thing is that more people think they have this trait than actually do. Then you're in the awkward position of not only telling them they stink, but having to fight the uphill battle of changing their mind rather than just making them aware

The ABCC11 gene. The odorless version is very common in Asia

I think this is a "beauty is in the eye of the beholder thing", only with noses. Which smells you find offensive are a product of what you're used to. I'm not too fond of that typical "homeless musk" (which sounds offensive, but I'm struggling to think of a more neutral term). I can take or leave manure. But I absolutely cannot stand strong soaps & perfumes. YMMV, I suffer from migraines and my nose is particularly sensitive.

When I was young I did not feel the body odor on me either. I was put in front of the spotlight before lesson that I smell and I was told to use a deodorant (the teacher told me in front of the class). I felt so ashamed. Because of this experience I am very conscious of how I smell now. Extremely so.

Shaming people's natural body odor shouldn't be the norm. It's quite distasteful and intolerant in fact (even sometimes a clear sign of racism). If someone gets offended by someone's BO, I would suggest them to reevaluate themselves as a human being and try to be tolerant of other's human nature.

I shower irregularly, when needed. Obviously more after a special sweat inducing effort or getting dirty outdoor. I don't stink, I smell human.

I find it offensive that someone would be so insensitive to have the nerve to express a displeasure at my natural body odor, when most often than not they would be the ones flouting a strong headache inducing chemical deodorant and/or perfume smell.

Living in a diverse society doesn't mean that everybody should be as bland as possible, but instead that efforts have to be made to be tolerant of others as they are.

So F* your teacher, shame on them

I suppose I can understand if some people are put off by it, but I do not think that I should have been told this in front of the entire class like that. I have not felt more ashamed in my entire life than I did then. She should have talked to me about it in private, perhaps after lesson or something I do not know, but not shaming me in front of the entire class like that.

Too poo is also human. That teacher was a massive jerk, but walking around reeking because it is human is not much better.

Yeah, "I don't smell" is an oxymoron because how one smells is something determined by others, not oneself. I bet these people reek.

Steve Jobs famously did this at Atari.

As a student, at Reed College, Steve Jobs came to believe that if he ate only fruits he would eliminate all mucus and not need to shower anymore. It didn’t work. He didn’t smell good. When he got a job at Atari, given his odor, he was swiftly moved into the night shift, where he would be less disruptive to the nostrils of his fellow colleagues.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/freekvermeulen/2011/10/17/steve...

He was superstitious when it came to medicine, and that lead to his death. His cancer was curable.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/oct/21/steve-job...

I mean, it’s curable but the 5 year survival rate is only 5-10% [0]

Jobs delaying treatment likely made it worse for him, but I don’t think it’s fair to say his disease was curable. Especially when compared to something like melanoma that’s 90% for five year survival [1].

Had his fruitarian tendencies led to him dying of hepatitis or something, that’s a different story.

[0] https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseas... [1] https://www.cancer.org/cancer/melanoma-skin-cancer/detection...

It's worth pointing out that Jobs specifically had an islet cell tumour, which is a pretty distinct form of pancreatic cancer and has a 5-year survival rate of maybe 50-60%.

(This is not to make a point about any personal health decisions he may have taken, but just to clarify why you will often hear his cancer being described as "curable").

Thanks for clarifying the specific type of cancer. But I still think it’s inaccurate to call a 50-60% survival rate cancer as “curable.”

He had a rare type of pancreatic cancer.

// Jobs had a rare form of the cancer, known as neuroendocrine cancer, which grows more slowly and is easier to treat, explains Leonard Saltz, acting chief of the gastrointestinal oncology service at Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center. "Survival for many years or even decades with endocrine cancer is not surprising." For that type, the sort that Jobs had, "survival is measured in years, as opposed to pancreatic cancer, which is measured in months." //

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/pancreatic-cancer...

Survival in years instead of months is not curable.

Being human is only survivable for years...

And no one should describe being human as “curable.”

> She says that, since 1950, we have gone from bathing once a week to every day. “Has that changed our skin microbiome? I think the answer is yes. And has that caused a rise in inflammatory skin diseases? I think the answer is yes, but we don’t know.”

People believe a lot of wrong things. I don't see how this is any different. Do some scientific research then come back.

I don't even believe people bathed once a week in 1950, or at least that's the first I'm hearing of it.

Are you saying you think they bathed more or less frequently?

It's true, and I've seen it in a lot of old school books on hygiene, and conversed about with with the older generation.

Though the alternative wasn't "do nothing", it was to scrub your face, neck, ear, armpits, and crotch with soapy water and a washcloth every morning.

May vary by where you are and your background (we weren't fabulously well off, and heating water isn't free) but even in the 80s here there was an agreed concept of "bath night". While I had a full bath much more than once a week it certainly wasn't every day, the other days it was a standing-at-the-sink "pits, bits & face" wash. I'm guessing this is what people were said to be doing in the 50s and earlier.

These days I tend to have a shower or bath most evenings, but didn't have the shower option growing up, and sometimes a p & b wash in the morning (particularly if it has been a hot humid night).

Probably plenty of places in the world where its still the norm.

Agreed - they should not only do some scientific research, but historical research as well. Folks have been bathing regularly - more than once a week - for generations. It all depended on where you live in the world, the tech you have access to, and how wealthy you were.

New age health and fitness people are allergic to non-organic materials, gluten, and science. They'll believe anything if it makes them feel special and trendy.

I stopped using shampoo over the last year and have been told by other people my hair doesn't smell of anything.

But does it have to smell of anything? With that, I feel the same way like deodorant, I will take the one that smell the least of anything. That doesn't mean I want to walk/work and smell of sweat, but I also don't want to smell like a coconut or a scented candle.

I have a friend who lives like this. He also insists he doesn't smell. In reality he often has a noticeable odor. Whether you'd find this odor offensive or not seems to be at least partly cultural.

There's a big difference between not using soap and not washing at all. Also there are two separate concerns here: sebum (grease), and the microbiome. Many people have successfully stopped using shampoo to slow down sebum production in the scalp. Although it's probably most pronounced there, I can imagine something similar goes for the skin elsewhere. Probably the microbiome interacts with sebum in some way but they do seem like quite distinct issues.

I rarely shampoo, once every few weeks maybe. I do use conditioner once a week maybe. My hair tends to smell noticeably worse the day or two after shampooing and is more oily, but eventually it subsides - both the smell and the oil. I doubt it is olfactory fatigue as I’m usually pretty observant of my own body odour.

I have played around with the amount of cosmetics I use over the years, and observed how my own bodily odors change in response to various things, most prominently my diet and state of mind.

Towards the end of the article, forest bathing is mentioned. I haver noticed that every time I spend time in a forest, my skin gets this very musky smell to it. Another time this happens is when I take cold showers, water only. Though, Tha is a different musky smell.

3-4 people have told me that I smelled very nice over the years, one even thought I smelled like his ex-girlfriend.

I would not be surprised if there is far more going on to smell, and the skin, than we realize. Colonies and colonies of organisms, waiting to make a home in our bodies.

I would not take any of these stories seriously:

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/09/26/9170199...

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080829143946A...

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/3-things-that-happen-when_b_1...

A mild body-funk odor is less offensive to me than someone that uses excessive perfume, cologne, or scented soap.

These body odors come from a combination of factors that include diet, physical activity and clothing. And the perception of body odor is heavily conditioned by culture.

If you work out regularly, your sweat isn't going to stink as much. Also, certain fabrics promote bacteria growth. Polyester is the worst, cotton is bad because it retains moisture too much. The best base-layer fabric to manage sweat is fine wool, the lack of odor is noticeable compared to anything else.

>A mild body-funk odor is less offensive to me than someone that uses excessive perfume, cologne, or scented soap.

Well, emphasis on excessive. There can be cloying ones, yeah. It depends though. I have both winter and summer fragrances. If I take the winter fragrance during a summer day, then it is very cloying. To work I wear a very light/subtle fragrance, something that reminds people of "cleanliness" (here at least).

I use soap (well, shower gel) on my private parts and armpits, but places like my elbow, knees, back or feet (fortunately my feet don't sweat nor smell) regularly go for weeks or months without soap.

I can't imagine using only water for prolonged periods of time, but you can go VERY light on soap and still be a clean looking (smelling) human being.

I've found that if I use soap on my face I get breakouts, and shampooing my hair always makes it worse. Pits, feet, and balls absolutely need soap, though.

I'm not sure about soap, but many products have SLS, which can cause problems. I'm not certain it's well understood, but it's cheap and "generally accepted as safe" so manufacturers use it liberally.

I had trouble with sheets that were freshly washed, they felt irritating to sleep on. it would go away after a day and the sheets would feel soft.

I switched to SLS-free laundry detergent and everything was awesome.

I also did the same with shampoo and my scalp seemed to be better. toothpaste too.

You might want to see if that makes any difference.

Interesting. I use bamboo viscose bedsheets. And I currently use the Costco "Ultra Clean Free & Clear" which contains SLS. However, I used to use Ecos laundry detergent also from Costco which didn't contain it, but they no longer seem to carry it, which came in giant containers.

Edit: the latter is available online, but it contains Sodium Coco-Sulfate made from plants.

yeah, it's hard to navigate SLS. Manufacturers know people will not buy when it's on the ingredient list and will use alternative names (I've seen like 10 alternate names)

I also used ecos, that disappeared from costco. There was a detergent from all (all fresh clean essentials sulfate-free), but that became hard to get. I now use a detergent called puracy.

I had "acne" until about age 30. You have to use a facial soap on your face. Body soap, hand soap, or any other kind of soap will make you break out. Wash your hair 3x a week and your face after that.

Doesn't work if you have an oily complexion... Even if you can stand the unpleasant feeling of your face being covered with grease all the time, you'll be shining like a lamppost, which looks unattractive to other people.

If you use regular soap on your face it's because the soap water has a high pH whereas your skin has a slightly acidic pH of around 5.5. So the soap disrupts the acidic barrier of your skin which prompts the skin to produce more sebum (acidic) to restore said barrier. [this is a simplification]

This happens on all your skin but it's more egregious on the face because the skin is more delicate there.

No idea for the shampoo though.

Are there any negative implications of using baking soda in you arm pits instead of a deodorant? I think it has exactly same effect pH wise as you have described about soap. It seems to be quite effective and more natural way of neutralising under pits odor than regular deodorants though and I haven't personally noticed any side effects.

Use a good facewash designed for your skin. I advise having dermatologist look over your skin closely.

Do you use a conditioner after shampoo and how frequently do you shampoo?

Many shampoos can be too abrasive or contain chemicals which can be irritating for you. You might want to switch to baby version of skin products which irritate you. Sometimes, those will irritate less or not at all.

Use liquid soap which can be mixed with water instead of one that has to be applied directly to your skin.

There are bunch of tests to figure out these products for you at dermatologist.

The biggest benefit to cutting out shampoos and conditioners and heavily scented soaps is that if you're outside, mosquitoes and black flies will mostly leave you alone without having to use bug spray.

Use a basic unscented or mildly scented bar soap like Ivory and you can go from having a cloud of insects plaguing you to almost nothing.

Subtile genetics may influence that too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_odor#Genetics

Tried to buy once in a mainland chinese super market why i need a deo-dorant. They had a good laugh! Still sold lots of variants of soap though.

In an ideal scenario, non-washing to gain non-odorous, healthy, skin microbes is a workable, sound, theory, and, depending on your diet will 'work'. However, in this covid-age, or for refuge, fish, coal, and bio-med industry workers, it simply cannot.

I found it takes about 12 hours to have armpit smell and 3 days to have ball smell like rotten fish.

These people have some cognitive dissonant, new age Breatharian rationalizing going on in their crazy heads.

Nothing new to see... or smell... here.

For me it takes as long as I start sweating. When I dress up after taking a shower I start sweating about 20-40 minutes later and I immediately can smell the body odor. It might be because of how conscious I am of it due to a childhood experience I just shared in another comment, or perhaps there is a genetic factor to it, too. Diet plays a role, too, although it does not seem to matter what I eat, I still smell it on me when I sweat.

When I stopped eating sugary foods my body odor changed. I imagine for this to work you'd also need a very clean diet and lifestyle, otherwise you'd be broadcasting your unhealthy habits.

Also stress. Stress smells too. Probably the stuff that's exuded via sweat differs based on how you feel.

If everyone around you says "do you smell onion?" then reevaluate

“Studies showed reduction of blood pressure and headaches in those using the micro biome regimen.”

What the hell?

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