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Comment by pjmlp | Hacker News Reader

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pjmlp

> Device Warranty: 30 Days

EU Law states two years regardless of manufacturer wishes.

https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/gua...

=> The two-year period starts from the day you received the product:

And given it is shipped from Poland, it falls under it.

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The website makes the following very clear (not in fine print but right at the beginning of the description).

> Beta Limited Edition PinePhones are aimed solely at early adopters. More specifically, only intend for these units to find their way into the hands of users with extensive Linux experience.

If you mistake this for a finished phone, I hope regulators will see that Pine64 did due diligence to warn you that this is a half-finished prototype of a phone. At the end of the day, if malicious customers do complain to regulators because their "early-adopter" phone wasn't production ready, it seems that legally Pine64 can simply refund those purchases.

Agreed, they make this very clear in multiple different ways:

> core functionality of the PinePhone still an ongoing effort. Thus, the device cannot considered a consumer-ready product.

> DISCLAIMER [...] If you think that a minor dissatisfaction, such as a dead pixel will prompt you to file a PayPal dispute, DO NOT purchase the PinePhone. When fulfilling your purchase, please bear in mind that we are offering the PinePhone at this price as a community service to PINE64 community. Thank you.

This type of device feels just like an extension of what people do in the open source hardware community when a small group gets some custom PCBs made: Someone releases it on a forum, enough people show interest, they decide how many to get made and then one person makes and pays the order and distributes them without really making any money (considering the time they put in you might say they are losing money). That's what this is, just more pieces without you having to do surface mount soldiering.

I mean what do people expect for $150, it's something to buy to hack on.

From https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/dealing-with-customers...:

"When can your customer claim redress?

Be aware that you are legally bound by any public statements you make about your products, especially through advertisements or on labels.

If you are a retailer, your customers can ask for redress under the legal guarantee provided by EU law - if an item:

    - doesn't match the product description
    - has different qualities from the model advertised or shown to the client
    - is not fit for purpose - either its standard purpose or a specific purpose ordered by the customer which you accepted
    - doesn't show the quality and performance normal in products of the same type
    - wasn't installed correctly - either by you, or by the customer, due to shortcomings in the instructions

IF YOU INFORM your customer that the product you are going to sell has quality problems, they cannot then claim redress from you about this particular defect."<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

You are right and you are wrong. They must provide a 2 year warranty on the functionality of a "Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone" with the following disclaimer "Beta Limited Edition PinePhones are aimed solely at early adopters. More specifically, only intend for these units to find their way into the hands of users with extensive Linux experience". A beta is not expected to function correctly. Hence, there is no justification for return under eu law. People writing these laws aren't idiots.

Additionally, that warranty state works well in other jurisdictions and is fine.

ahhhhhhh, I feel like I got baited.

I see this comment every time something about the PinePhone is announced, but considering that this is more of a tinkering project and not so much an actual product I just don't see how relevant this is.

You are not buying a Pixel 4, you are buying something that still needs a lot of work.

Does the EU law make exemptions for unfinished products? They're still providing you a product.

These laws were made to protect regular consumers when they buy a washing machine to ensure that the manufacturer could not screw them over.

This is Pine64, which is about as close to community driven hardware development as you can get. They give you the open-source design and source code. If you think you might need a two year guarantee just don't buy their product, it's probably not a good fit for you anyway.

Regular consumers are not supposed to buy it. They probably wouldn't be able to use it and certainly wouldn't get much out of it.

This isn't about needing it though, as far as I can tell it's legally required, so I don't know how (if at all) they're getting around that.

> These laws were made to protect regular consumers when they buy a washing machine to ensure that the manufacturer could not screw them over over the last few decades:

That didn't work out very well. They just found different, more insidious ways of screwing people over.

https://www.ukwhitegoods.co.uk/help/buying-advice/washing-ma...

...

I personally don't expect the 2 years, but tell that to the regulator. You may be able to declare it as a DIY kit, but I have doubts.

But I suppose this type of stuff is exactly what the higher priced stores are for. If you want it cheap but without support, buy directly from China.

Sure, but I doubt that they ship any kind of volume that would draw the attention of EU regulators.

Also Pine64 is from China, they are based in Hong Kong iirc. The shipping warehouse in Poland is just a place where they keep stocks.

It's not about the volume. There were issues shipping into particular countries that may actually check items on the border for more than just price matching the product so customs/VAT is not gamed, and the state gets their proper cut. Things like manual in the language of the country, certifications, etc.

My country is more on the "we just want the cut" side, but some people in Germany had trouble getting individual shipments into the country, for example.

Its a phone you can purchase from their website that they will send to you. The purchasing process is exactly the same as buying a galaxy s21. If companies could just say "this is an unfinished product" to get around mandatory warranties, everyone would do it. PinePhone should not be exempt because they are selling what they call a beta product.

This would effectively kill devices like PinePhone, because they wouldn't be able to test the product in development with the community. Is that really the desirable outcome?

It's not like we're talking about some kind of small print in the EULA here, either. It's prominently plastered all across the website, and during the ordering process.

Warranty and guarantee ("Gewährleistung") are different things, at least in germany. Warranty is something provided freely by the manufacturer/supplier under whatever terms they want. Guarantee on the other hand is mandatory, and even though it's two years, after 6 months you have to prove the defect was there from the beginning, which is somewhat complicated for electronics...

If you do it on your own sure, but I usually offload such issues to Verbraucherzentrale and let them do the talk if there is no collaboration, usually it has an higher success rate when they come into play.

Then don't buy it. Its a community service.

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