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Comment by tptacek | Hacker News Reader

There's no such thing as "secure, but not trusted". The security depends on the trust. That isn't just how TLS works; it's how all secure key exchanges work.

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That's exactly how mail works between servers though. Granted, it's about semantics, but virtually all mail servers accept TLS connections without the need to check cert validity of their respective counterparts.

Yes: encryption does not work in multi-hop SMTP email. Email is not a secure messaging system, and it is difficult to even build a novel secure messaging system on top of it.

Client-server TLS has a goal of actually thwarting adversaries. SMTP encryption is mostly about raising the costs of adversaries (I think there's plusses and minuses with this strategy; to some threshold, increasing costs for the US IC is actually helping them, organizationally, because the IC's real primary goal is budget-seeking).

That is very obviously not the case. A self-signed certificate protects data from being intercepted and read just as well as a signed one. The only thing "valid" certs protect from that self-signed certs don't is impersonation. In the case of an intranet or local embedded device, if someone can MITM your connection, you're already screwed - and either way, your are just as screwed getting MITMd with an unchecked cert as you are with no encryption. The difference is, that without any encryption, an attacker doesn't even need to MITM you - they can just sit quietly and snoop on your packets.

One of the basic jobs of a secure transport is to prevent MITM attacks. MITM attacks are the modal attack on TLS. It's not 1995 anymore. Nobody's using solsniff.c.

s/secure/encrypted/ ?

There’s little point in encrypting if you’re not authenticating

Which is why ssh is meaningless compared with telnet?

Obviously, SSH authenticates. But on that first connection, when it prints the "you've never seen this key before" warning? You get that you're not getting any real security on that connection, right?

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