When Myanmar needs ProtonVPN the most, Apple stands in the way of human rights | Hacker News Reader

When Myanmar needs ProtonVPN the most, Apple stands in the way of human rights

protonvpn.com

105 pointsksec39 comments

Very melodramatic marketing tactic from protonvpn here.

I sincerely hope someone from Apple sees this post on HN and escalate this to resolve the issue.

I'm a Myanmar citizen and I have my mother and other relatives living with fear there. The only way I can talk to my mother every day (to check in and see if she is okay) through internet VoIP calls (e.g., we use Viber and sometimes, Messenger if it's not overloaded/slow) is via VPN. I just realized that it's very likely ProtonVPN that she has been using (She refers to it as the 'VPN'. She is not a tech-savvy person, but the tech-savvy people there shared info via Facebook so she was able to figure out how to use the VPN to get around the internet restrictions).

I wish more people see this and put the people most affected by this decision at the forefront, rather than privileging metaphysical concerns of the uninvolved and uninterested Westerner.

I hope your family stay safe.

I spent some time in Cambodia, and the parallels look chilling. I really hope Myanmar doesn't walk the same road.

Anyone in Apple: this is what Cambodian-style fanaticism and genocide looks like when it starts. You can be on the right side of history, or you can make a profit. Your choice. Choose now.

Thank you. I worry very much about my mother and everyone there. Today, the military just wantonly shot and killed a 7-year old girl who was sitting on her grandpa's lap. The military is doing what it can to intimidate citizens.

For anyone interested, this site documents SOME of the business interests of the military junta and its cronies.

https://data.justiceformyanmar.org/

If there's anything I can do to help, let me know.

That was the thing that chilled me to the core in Cambodia - the absolute wanton disregard for human life. People were killed for absolutely no reason. Later, they didn't even use bullets, preferring to beat victims to death. When the worth of a human life is less than the worth of a single bullet, that's so fucking scary it's hard to put into words.

Like I said, I really hope Myanmar doesn't walk the same road. But I fear it will. And I fear that the West will sit around and do nothing because realpolitik means that these peoples' lives are worth nothing. And then there will be a great wringing of hands and wailing about human rights like there has been in Cambodia.

Again, if you work at Apple, do something now. Or look back with guilt and regret.

Thank you. The Myanmar military is no different than ISIS militia in that they have makeshift trucks loaded with guns and they roam around the city shooting anyone randomly on sight. I have made a comment with the pictures as an example here [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26562272].

One thing you could do is to raise awareness about this and maybe donate, if you can, or support these groups: https://www.mutualaidmyanmar.org/ https://www.justiceformyanmar.org/

There are many other VPN apps available in the app store, for example: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/1-1-1-1-faster-internet/id1423...

The issue is with the submitted app description. What is so hard to understand about this, just change the damn description to comply.

Agreed. They are trying to conflate two issues that are separate.

If Apple was blocking all VPNs from the App Store, they would have a valid argument, but Apple is blocking it for promoting accessing geolocked content in the app description.

That has nothing to do with the events in Myanmar. It’s just happening at a time when VPNs are extremely important for residents there. And as the parent comment mentioned, there are tons of alternatives.

Of course a VPN can bypass geo-restrictions. Internet censorship is a geo-restriction. And companies who cooperate with a government can very well turn that specific kind of geo-restriction into other types. And most importantly, will the people of Myanmar understand the usage of a VPN as bypassing geo-restrictions? Most certainly, and that also is how I understand the usage of a VPN.

Also mentioned in the post that the description has been fine for a long time. The timing of an enforcement is always political.

We've already changed our description and the new app update has been approved by Apple. However, the point is that this description has actually been on the ProtonVPN app for a long time - but Apple only blocked the update now. Apple forced us to censor the fact that ProtonVPN can be used to circumvent internet blocks in Myanmar, preventing users there from finding ways to bypass internet blocks, and hampering the defense of human rights at a critical time.

Didn't everyone just applaud big tech for kicking Parler off of every service because there were calls for violence against the government? This feels similar to me.

However, it also seems like they could have changed that sentence in far less time than writing a blog post.

Apple has no objections to the functionality or what it is in practice used for. Just the description.

I laugh every time everytime apple users says they are commited to privacy

Riiiight

small print - as long as you arent in China, Myanmar, Russia, <insert other names> here.

Ah yes, the 'ol "black and white" argument. It's obvious that Apple/iOS is more committed to privacy than Google/Android. To deny it it just fooling yourself.

I think you forgot something.. "until proven otherwise" Do not trust these companies too much, they are not to be trusted.

well, depend on your perspective. I live in Poland, former USSR, now right wing catholic totalitarian state. Privacy for me it means against state procescutors which right now in Poland are near nazi-germany esque. That means apple is useless for me as probalby they work with 'abw' - polish NSA. Also whole cerberus from Israeli secret services

If people in USA want privacy against advertisers - only democratic gov can ger lats to provide that

two different things

There is a reasonable middle ground, but all of Big Tech has gone way beyond that, Apple included.

The issue is with the app description. Apple has no objection to the functionality, just making the functionality so obvious.

At least Proton offers OpenVPN access to their servers so the users aren't dependent on the app. I think most other VPN providers to provide that kind of access.

I have yet to see one who doesn't. ExpressVPN and VyprVPN which are big give you OpenVPN configs.

Same with NordVPN.

A while ago, I did some comparison shopping/testing. All the ones I looked at (Cypberghost, ExpressVPN, IPVanish, Mullvad, Nord PIA, ProtonVPN, Surfshark, TunnelBear) offered OpenVPN compatible files. Some were harder to use than the others, but at the end of the day, I could run "openvpn --config filename.ovpn" to connect to the service.

If everyone donated $3/month we could create a network of Outline VPN servers hosted on Lightsail (or wherever).

No we wouldn't. Running a VPN service is not a endeavor issue, it's a legal endeavor. Most VPN providers have a bigger legal department than tech department.

I know for a fact a prominent VPN providers had all it's tech stack (+3k servers all over the world) managed by a single guy.

I'm honestly not surprised. Apple doesn't mind supporting totalitarian regimes as longas it brings cash.

It is not apple's responsibility to fight totalitarian governments nor is the business of Americans to meddle into foreign governments.

For all we care the democratic government could be a puppet in the hands of CIA or PRC.

So is it apples responsibility to work with totalitarian governments?

They are supposed to be complaint with whichever country they are operating in or simply get out of that country. Anything else is basically white people projecting their virtues on other countries.

And this is how IBM execs justified working with Nazi germany.

IBM was at no fault to work with Nazi Germany. What appears wrong in hindsight may not be that clear during those times.

Note: US government funded and fueled Taliban that eventually resulted in 9/11.

Right, but the military junta is totally fine, even if they are at this moment firing on civilian protestors.

It is none of Apple's business nor American people's business. American people if their heart bleeds for Myanmar's people are more than welcome to send planes to give asylum to Myanmar's people in USA. Put your money where your mouth is.

Buy non apple kit then... same old boring story.

Apple isn’t a manufacturer of tech for political unrests.

They follow protocols to allow or block apps on their App Store, it’s a private company.

Also the wording claiming that proton aims to help people “challenge governments” may imply situations well beyond the Myanmar crisis.

The alternative to this is corporations have their own set of laws that they choose themselves, and any local laws don’t apply to them.

Put another way with a company more people on HN love: should google get to ignore the GDPR because it hurts its profit margin?

Local laws can be enforced by local governments. Corporations may choose to participate in civil disobedience, and pay the legal consequences. Or they can support murderous totalitarian regimes, and pay the social consequences.

Who gets punished when a company violates local laws? Not the CEO in another country.

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