Hacker News Reader

Comment by ironmagma | Hacker News Reader

Erring on the side of caution was always an option. Advising people to wear masks early on instead of insisting that hand washing is the only thing necessary could have helped. Also encouraging exercise to mitigate the effects of the virus in case you do get it is something we still haven’t risen to.

View on HN

These are not alternatives to basing policies on scientific knowledge, they are either alternatives - chosen with the benefit of hindsight - to some of the specific policies followed for a time, or some additional science-informed actions that could be taken.

Human history has plenty of experience of what happens in epidemics when the response is not informed by science, and we do not need any more of that.

Furthermore, not erring on the side of caution is more frequently encouraged among those who are dismissive of the idea of using science to guide policy.

We have plenty of science, hundreds if not thousands of years’ of scientific evidence, that solid objects stop particles. A mask in front of the face when there is an unknown disease is simply common sense, basic physics to be more precise. To say that you need hindsight to make this judgment is ludicrous. The only (legitimate) reason you would not want to encourage mask wearing is if there was some way the mask could actually make you more likely to catch the virus somehow, which there was no evidence of.

Blocking particles does not look like a solution unless you know what is causing a given disease. Medieval practitioners might have had some sort of intuition that this might be effective, but it was at most one idea among many mostly false ones, it dd not have any empirical support, and it did not translate into effective prophylaxis.

Like I said, you are proposing alternative science-based policies, which does not support the thesis of the article.

Again, this goes back to a tried and true principle, “err on the side of caution.” It’s true that masks don’t look like a solution unless you know that it’s a disease spread by the air. That is why you in the beginning adopt all manner of protections: handwashing, distancing, cleaning surfaces, wearing masks. None of this has to do with “alternative science,” whatever that refers to.

It remains a fact that everything you have proposed is also based on science, and so stands as an alternative way to "follow the science", not a repudiation of doing so. As such, it makes no refutation of the_dune_13's point.

I’m refuting the notion that “follow the science” is sufficient strategy for a pandemic or for anything. It’s in the category “necessary but not sufficient.” We also have to actually understand the science.

Fair enough, but the authors of this article vent most of their ire on policies of isolation and containment, which are scientifically respectable, demonstrably effective when employed effectively, and in conformance with your principle of caution.

Is not the purpose of HN to post links in order to spur conversation? If we only regurgitated what the article said all the time there would be no iteration of ideas.

I agree, and, through this discussion, I see that you have a view that is distinct from that of the authors. I also agree that claiming masks were ineffective for the general public was a significant failure of science-based policy (it reminds me of the position that women could not catch HIV, which was ultimately a far more devastating failure of this sort.)

At the beginning of the pandemic, many scientists were worried that a mask works make things worse... As people would touch the mask and readjust it constantly. The question is, what evidence do we have that masks work for the average person?

  basic physics to be more precise

Look at the actual physics of the size of the virus particle (even with the lipid envelope) vs the width of the weave in conventional masks. It's like stopping BBs with a volleyball net.

The myth of mask = protection completely ignores that the eyes are a bigger attack surface than the nostrils or closed mouth. Eye coverage is at least as important as masks, yet it was always ignored by mainstream US media.

> It's like stopping BBs with a volleyball net.

Yes, but given the choice of there being a volleyball net between you and a BB gun shooter and there just being air, which do you choose?

That would have been a good reason to suggest wearing masks and also goggles. Personally I was wearing goggles in the beginning for that reason and still make sure to wear glasses since there is some evidence that they can help too. One wrong is still better than two wrongs.

It's not about either the particle or the lipid envelope. It's about the water particles containing the viruses. They get emitted when you breathe, and they are several orders of magnitude larger. The virus doesn't float around on its own.

The eyes are less of a problem because you don't breathe through your eyes. Only a limited amount of air contacts them, and no air is emitted from them.

Masks are at least as important for protecting others as for protecting yourself. They filter large volumes of air. Eye protection is useful if you're faced with people breathing directly in your face all day, but they're less important for people who can socially distance.

Given the reaction when Michelle Obama suggested kids eat more vegetables, you can only guess how many heads would explode if EXERCISE was mentioned!

Fauci has mentioned eating a healthy diet. But most people consider their diets healthy so that doesn't help. Anyway, this was obviously a point glossed over by the pro maskers.

Fauci is a mess honestly. He's been all over the map and revealed he's in the business of noble lies in the interest of policy objectives - which only backfires and erodes public trust.

Were the establishment smart, they'd have no problem with vaccination hesitancy by saying that after vaccination you can resume normal life and ditch the masks. Instead it's been the outrageous message of "nothing will change."

You only have to see how the establishment has handled the obesity epidemic in the US to see whether any of their supposed intelligence and expertise accomplishes anything.

Ventilation and filtration are more important than either of those efforts because they require zero compliance from the public. No one walks into Walmart and demands the blower fans on the air filter be turned off.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com