Leaked NPD(German right wing party) donors-list meets Google maps | Hacker News Reader

Leaked NPD(German right wing party) donors-list meets Google maps

maps.google.com

48 pointskv044 comments

Slightly edited Google Translate:

First, a few words in advance. I am a proud German, I love Germany above everything, and I do everything in my power to improve the image of Germany. If politics or the law will prosecute me, my heart aches. Because if they doe, all the great words of politicians are vain. Words such as: we will not allow that brings the NPD or the right wing of our children on the wrong track. We will do everything to the NPD or the Nazis to stop them. I know my actions will provoke a broad public interest. That is exactly my goal. I want the Germans are proud of themselves and their country, of the history and achievements. The whole world envies us for our intelligence and knowledge. But ok, that is up to you. The NPD can do what they want, I basically do not care. But if there is one thing I do care about, it is our children and our youth. I will not allow the NPD to gain more influence and spread their propaganda material on school grounds. The NPD is trying to influence our most precious treasure. I am assuming that you exceed, as a reader, a certain intellectual level to understanding for what I mean by "treasure". I am not a man of great words. And for this reason I will leave it at that.

"I am a proud German, I love Germany above everything, and I do everything in my power to improve the image of Germany."

First step: Don't ever talk like that.

as a non-german living in germany, why?

We had some bad experiences with "Deutschland über Alles" a couple of years ago, so "proud to be a German" and things like that are frowned upon, as they evoke the wrong images.

I leave the discussion about the merits of patriotism out of this, as it really doesn't matter that much here. This is more about advertising than content, and repeating the now unsung verses of the national anthem is generally considered a bit more than just a faux pas and causes legions of British reporters to perk up their ears...

I'm not a big fan of patriotism either but saying your proud of your country is basiclly what almost everybody in every country sais.

I agree with his points (now): It's not the pride in itself (we can argue if that is helpful, but that's not what mhd critizises). It's the phrase used (or - a couple of phrases, plus maybe the general tone) that leads to really nasty subtext.

The translation is incomplete. He didn't write "Ich bin stolz auf Deutschland" (I'm proud of Germany), he used "Ich bin ein stolzer Deutscher" (I'm a proud German), a phrase that is heavily (ab)used by the far right, the extremists.

Im from Switzerland im well awair of what you translated I agree that the phrase is (ab)used by the extremist but just because somebody sais it I would say he is a extremist. A person that hacked NPD isn't like an extremist just somebody that probebly is just a bit to much of a patriot. You can find enought people like that and the are not all extremists.

You must not be Canadian.

The whole "I'm proud to be X" would sound a bit rude or ignorant in my circles.

> The whole "I'm proud to be X" would sound a bit rude or ignorant in my circles.

Of course it's rude. Everyone knows that you're supposed to say "I'm happy/proud to not be an American."

No, that's not what I'm getting at. I'm trying to convey a different perspective.

For example very few houses or business here have flags. It's mostly a car-dealership / cottage thing.

It's actually just jarring to see how many flags are on display in the US even without getting into political sympathies. It's the visual equivalent of someone shouting in public.

> For example very few houses or business here have flags.

That's because you know that most of you are "not American" when you're in Canada.

Travelling Canadians outside the country tend to sprout flags.

Canadian flags. In Canada. As a comment on Canadian culture and US culture-shock. More clear?

My point is that just because somebody sais something like that you should just juge him to be a nazi. Spezially if that someone just hacked some nazis.

i'm not sure if you're alluding to something in particular or trying to make a joke.

but saying that its frowned upon to be proud of your own country (regardless of country), is to me, not a nice thing to say. singling germany out forever because of past events is dis-ingenious.

i would say that anyone whose nose gets bent out of shape because a german says they are proud of their country probably needs to take a second look at germany, and then themselves. and if a reporter is doing this, then it is most likely just stirring the pot

"The working class have no country". Nationalism is just a way to consolidate state power, and breeds strife amongst nations. It inevitably leads to a us-and-them scenario. The sooner it is stamped out, the better.

Nations are literally and figuratively large families. For example, roughly 25% of the USA populace claim descent from the Pilgrims[1] - a small group of ~100 people.

Nationalism is simply having pride in your family. To "stamp out" pride in your nation means that you have to "stamp out" pride in your family. The family is the basis of Western Civilization[2], and if you destroy the family, you get a lot of very bad and unwanted things as a consequence (like mass welfare and a halt to scientific progress).

[1]http://www.nytimes.com/2001/06/25/us/not-quite-your-ancestor... [2]http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/marriage/mf0060.ht...

It's not just patriotism and being proud of your country. It's the specific phrases. "Deutschland über Alles" (as in the original text of the hacker) is pretty tied to a specific era and best left alone as a phrase. Actually, "I'm proud to be German" as a phrase is tied to right-wing propaganda, too.

The Wikipedia article on patriotism has a nice statistic, although it's a bit old[1]. A few countries were asked how proud they were of their country, from a scale of 1 to 4. Most of them are in the 3 range (with the US leading with 3.92), Germany had a 1.37.

Again, this isn't really about what you want to express, it's how you do it. And a phrase like "Deutschland über Alles" is basically somewhat between "The South will rise again" and "White Power".

Personally, I find team jersey mentality like that a bit narcissistic, but if it floats your boat... But if you're about to improve the image of something, you shouldn't use the terminology of those you're opposing. That just makes it look like a battle between two equally wrong splinter groups of the same cause.

[1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriotism

ok, I think I know what you're going for. My response was based on the fact that many germans feel that they cannot express their patriotism because of how other countries/people/stereotypes will view them. intentions be damned. that was one of the great things about the 2006 world cup here. that all disappeared.

I think it is safe to say that what was written in the article was done so deliberately to get a rise from people who want to be a bit "ra-ra".

Two points:

1. "Das Lied der Deutschen," which starts with the phrase, "Deutschland, Deutschland über Alles," happens to have been penned by one of my ancestors, August Heinrich Hoffman von Fallersleben. Interestingly, it is not about Germany conquering foreign nations, but how the German-speaking peoples should unite in a republic instead of a rabble of principalities and kingdoms. Hoffman von Fallersleben wrote it in 1841 in support of the liberal revolutionary ideals of pan-German unity (as opposed to the reactionary aristocratic positions).

2. Granted Nazis and the Holocaust are bad things, but what is wrong with having pride in your country? Nations, in both the sense of geography and the sense of culturally related groups, are literally and figuratively large families. Telling someone that he should not have pride in his country because it infringes your sensibilities is telling him that he should not have pride in himself - and that is very offensive. It says that he has nothing worth preserving or cultivating and that all he may be is repulsive. Remember, no nation's history is blemishless.

For those curious, I am a flag-waving American and proud of it.

If you are proud of your country it means that you associate value with everything that is connected to the country. This value is intrinsic (for example everything manufactured in Germany has an intrinsic value because it is of German origin and you are proud of Germany).

The problem is that this line of thought automatically devalues everything not from your own country if it can be compared to something from your own country. Since everything from your country has an intrinsic value to you, everything not from your country lacks this value and is therefore less valuable to you. This would be OK if it was limited to manufactured products but sadly it includes people as well as whole cultures.

So being proud of your country makes you devalue everything from other countries before even considering its real value.

> The problem is that this line of thought automatically devalues everything not from your own country if it can be compared to something from your own country.

No. Valuing something does not automatically devalue everything else. If I say "I like German food", I'm not implying that I'm not liking Korean food or something.

People really are capable of liking more than one thing.

In consequence I don't see any problem with loving your country, as long as you don't take the step of hating or devaluing everything else.

> If I say "I like German food", I'm not implying that I'm not liking Korean food or something.

Except, that's not what the original quote said.

> I am a proud German, I love Germany above everything, and I do everything in my power to improve the image of Germany.

I am a proud German, I love German food above everything, and I do everything in my power to improve the image of German food.

Apples to oranges.

I'm German and have no love for (any really. I just don't seem to "get" it) the country. Your comment surprised me though, because it was very short (abd therefor seemed arbitrary, snarky).

Thanks a lot for explaining your reasons later on - it was only then that I actually clicked the link above and read the original german text. Your point is great. I wouldn't want to have a beer with someone writing like this guy.

But you did yourself a disfavor by replying in this terse style at first.

"We will do everything to the NPD or the Nazis to stop them." - so would they e.g. torch their HQ building, assuming no one is inside? I'm not the greatest fan of either Sony or this German party, but I find the idea of vigilantism quite disturbing. Don't anyone dare approach the Internet if their political views don't align with those of Anonymous.

This has been covered by the mainstream German media:

30.5.2011, Spiegel Online, Hacker kapern rechte Websites, http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/web/0,1518,765784,00.html

31.5.2011, sueddeutsche.de, Hacker kapern NPD-Webseiten, http://www.sueddeutsche.de/digital/attacke-auf-rechte-partei...

The NPD response, quoted in the Spiegel article, is laughable: they talk about how their security was relatively good and that there is no such thing as 100% security rather than what they are going to do for their exposed donors. With luck, this means that they will have fewer donors in future.

Just in case the point needs spelling out: for an organisation to to administer all of its 26 websites from the same machine it stores some of its most sensitive data is not relatively good security.

Considering the number of NPD deputies who have lost their mandate because of fraud, embezzlement, theft, ... I would say that security is not exactly their primary concern.

Perhaps a bit off-topic:

The world will change in the coming years. Not only in Egypt & Co. but also in the west. Curious to see how the governments & elites will react. A sense of enlightenment might propagate throughout the masses. For example: Tomorrow people might no longer tolerate their government's corruption. The day after they might decide that they don't really need all the stuff they buy. How would that effect everything?

If anything, people vastly underestimate the change that the Internet represents.

Regarding: "The day after they might decide that they don't really need all the stuff they buy."

I would like to add that it is also easy to underestimate the inherent desire to consume, purchase, and obtain material wealth- even among an informed population.

The propagation of ideas is more often a function of their fecundity than their nobility.

Hm, I think that statement could be contested. But anyway, in regards to the effect the web has, one could argue that democratization has enough value to the people who are using the Internet to spread western values in their countries to go out and do something.

First they came for the yada yada yada...

I really wish that before deploying a tactic like this against their political enemies folks would stop and consider what the world would be like if the shoe was on the other foot and their political enemies were deploying it against them.

But a seriously large number of people seem to have an attitude that "It's okay, we can do this, we're the good guys".

I must agree with you; but the list itself got so much exposure in the German media already, that it'd be pointless debating this collection in GoogleMaps.

In general, it's kind of a difficult topic. I agree, that votes cast should always be private. But I'm partial on donations. A scenario in which supporters of an illegal party would be prosecuted by an oppressive state is quite different from simply making it known exactly who supports a legal party in any kind of state. As long as there is no consequence whatsoever for the donors themselves, I believe that open donations can make the political game more public, and less secretive.

Wasn't there a similar discussion in America about concealing names of donors in presidential elections? I can't remember anymore, must've been around the time Obama came to power.

There's no doubt that this is illegal. It's hard not to derive a little pleasure, though, when such illegal nastiness happens to the bad guys.

Do be aware that the NPD isn't just guilty of holding unpopular views. The NPD frequently organises aggressively provocative rallies that generally lead to predicted violence, with the police reporting between 500 and 1,000 violent crimes most years that are rooted in right extremism - beating up immigrants, people who dress "wrong", &c.

Why is it that people support secret ballot, but not secret donation? Both are forms of political support, and making them public can in theory prevent people from expressing their true views. So why is the secrecy of one protected, but not the other?

My opinion:

In a democracy, ideally every one should have the same amount of voting power. Independent of social status, power and wealth.

Secret of vote, is there to prevent bribery and blackmail. Hence, even a poor and powerless person can vote, according to their heart.

In contrast, donations to politicians and parties, are an attempt to "buy" elections.

You could make it so that even the receiver of the donation doesn't know where the money comes from.

I heard this idea somewhere else recently, and I think it's brilliant. Instead of limiting sizes of political donations, just make it impossible to track who gave 'em. Oh sure, you can still tell your favourite politician "Hey, I just gave you ten thousand dollars" but they can't possibly check.

Closing a few obvious loopholes: you should only be able to donate in certain nice round numbers ($10, $20, $50, $100, ... $10,000, $20,000) to avoid situations where you can tell a politician "Hey, the $15433.33 donation is from me" and have them confirm it. And it should be fuzzy in time, too -- politicians shouldn't know when a donation came in with resolution greater than a week or so.

It's great, because people are still free to support their favourite politicians as much as they like, but with greatly decreased possibility for corruption.

Politicians will, of course, hate it, so it'll never happen.

They don't even have to know the amount of the transactions. The "campaign donation bureau" can only releases monthly balances.

It's like drugs and weapons: if you ban legal donations, you'll get a democracy funded by illegal donations.

This is not fair - whoever has donated and whatever party he supports. For sure, we all know Germany's history and we know that we need to take care about what nationalist parties are doing. But it is not fair to publish a list of people who have donated. It is your right to stay private! To conclude: There are more severe threats: business men insuits, people who underpay workers. In Germany, the NPD is not the most serious threat.

I find it fascinating with these kinds of datasets that the outliers are more likely than not errors. For example, I'm guessing that "Nevskiy Prospekt" is most likely in the non-Florida St. Petersburg.

This happened with the UK's own fascist/far-right party in 2009. Twice, actually.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/oct/20/bnp-membershi...

I'm a little surprised that there weren't higher concentrations in areas that I usually associate with ultra-conservative views, e.g. the rural South.

The rural southern areas are conservative, not fascist — though their conservatism usually implies a bit of racism, that doesn't mean that they tend to support radical fascism. They're usually too scared to ruin their public or neighborhood image.

The "battle for the heads" (Kampf um die Köpfe in German; how the NPD's and similar right-wing institutions' propaganda battle is often referred to in German media,) targets mostly bored and disillusioned youth, and is more successful in the poorer East than it would be in the well-off South.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com