50% of iPhones Brought to Genius Bar Have Never Been Synced | Hacker News Reader

50% of iPhones Brought to Genius Bar Have Never Been Synced

macrumors.com

75 pointsot80 comments

syncing is a massive PITA, thats why.

I just bought this new album and am halfway out the door ... but oh wait!!! I forgot to sync it to my iphone, and I really want to listen to it on my 30 minute drive to work ... now I have to go back in the house, hope that my iphone shows up in itunes when I connect it (on windows sometimes you have to restart your computer for this to happen) then select the album and hit 'sync' which takes another couple of minutes.

oh joy.

Then have you ever gotten your phone/ipad played with it, installed a few apps, downloaded some books before finally connecting it with itunes, only for Apple to tell you that its about to to wipe out all the apps on your phone since its a new device and you downloaded all those apps before your first sync?

Yeah ... lets just say the number doesn't surprise me.

After using Google Music on my Android, and the rest of Android's excellent syncing capabilities, I don't think I could ever use an iPhone in its current state simply because syncing with iTunes is an absolute burden.

To elaborate, I heard a really cool song at my friends house the other day and wanted to listen to it on the road home (long trip). So I start up LogMeIn on my Nexus S, remote into my pc and quickly download the album. Once the album finished downloading, Google Music picked it up and started to upload it to its own service. In less than 5 minutes, and over 250 miles away from my home PC, I had this particular album on my phone ready to be played on my car stereo. That to me is absolutely incredible, and I think it really highlights where Apple is starting to fumble with the iPhone in comparison to some of Android's features.

Ease of use? You forgot the part where you had to remote desktop into your home PC to download the music. iPhone users have had a functional music store on their phone since 2007.

It was a bad example. Amazon MP3 Store downloads straight to the phone.

What's a good example, then? iOS devices can directly download music, apps, videos and books. There are few reasons it ever needs to be tethered, backing up being one of the big ones.

This isn't to knock Android's current OTA syncing, nor to say I'm not looking forward to iCloud. It's merely to point out that today's iOS isn't really that far behind Android as far as the customer experience goes. The only area where I see Android's experience as being superior is the case of a customer buying an app on their computer and sending it directly to their Android device.

The reason why Apple Store Geniuses are so excited for OTA iCloud syncing is mostly for the OTA backups – if every iOS customer is automagically backed up to iCloud, they can do a device swap without taking the time to backup and restore in-store.

Amazon MP3.

Not where I normally live. Of course, neither does Amazon.

They have wifi sync come this fall.

I have never met a person that enjoyed syncing, independent of the device they used. I’m also not at all surprised.

iPhones are perfectly functional phones without any syncing. If you don’t want to listen to your music or if you are content with only buying music in the Store there really is no need to sync. I guess the other big ticket item are photos but I have met very few people that keep their photo collection on their phone. The camera roll is all they need. (Also: A single sync is enough to bring both photos and music to the device, no need for additional syncs in the future.)

Contacts, emails, notes, calendar and all that stuff already work wirelessly, for example with a Google account.

This is how people used to use phones, why should that change with the iPhone?

All this once again demonstrates is that something like iCloud is long overdue to make all those rare use cases easier where sync would be nice if it weren’t so hard to use.

Another reason why people might not sync their photos might be that there is no iPhone with more than 32GB of storage.

The next time I sync my phone it'll be for iOS5/iCloud. The sad thing is the current syncing experience is improved quite a bit from what it used to be.

Original: http://onefps.net/post/6496478249/50-percent-of-iphone-owner...

That.. doesn't make total sense unless these people aren't using their phones either. According to one analytics company iOS 3 has been virtually eliminated.

http://insights.chitika.com/2011/just-in-time-for-ios-5-ios-...

To upgrade you need to plug in your device and sync. Not to mention you generally need to sync to put music on the device.

Something is fishy about this rumor. Are the only people going to the Genius Bar recent purchasers?

To clarify ansy's post, the only iPhone that was released with iOS 4.0 installed by default is the iPhone 4.0. The only way to perform an OS upgrade with the iPhone is to do a device sync. If iOS 3.0 has been mostly eliminated, that means that the iPhone 4 must command at least 50% of the iPhone market -- probably much more. Given the amount of iPhone 3GSs that I regularly see, this seems a little far-fetched to me. Thus, someone's information is wrong somewhere.

Among my users, the iPhone 4 accounts for 61% of all iPhone devices active in the last 30 days. iPhone 3gs is 31%.

That's fair -- my anecdotal evidence isn't very scientific.

It's 50% of phones which end up at a Genius Bar. I'm pretty sure the ones that never see a Genius bar have higher rates of syncing.

My dad has never synced, his only use for the iPhone is as a phone, he doesn't want music on it, and doesn't care about software upgrades.

Is there a better offering on the market for someone (such as your dad), who only wants a phone? Surely there must be...

Price didn't matter to him, so he picked the phone that he liked the most, the same way you might buy a rolex because you like it, not because it offers better features than a $10 watch.

If reports around here are any indication, though, a $150 Nokia phone will work better (e.g., better sound quality) for making phone calls than an iPhone.

I've not heard complaints from iPhone-using friends about that, all complaints are about aspects that my father won't use, so when he asked my advice I didn't steer him away from it, and he hasn't had any issues with it.

And again, it comes down to "what would be better, a nice looking rolex or a military grade watch that guarantees to keep time a fraction of a second better than the rolex" - if he doesn't need the product that's technically best in the aspects he cares about, and doesn't care whether he spends $70 or $700, why not get the shiniest one that he'll enjoy the most.

But it's not marketed anywhere near as well - certainly it's not seen as the cool thing to have.

I used to work in AppleCare; the number of people who told me they bought iPhones because their friends told them to, but who were surprised there was an app store, or a music playing app, was amazing.

That would certainly have been the case with the first couple of iPhones, but the iPhone 4 has rather good calling quality.

Good to know.

I'm trying to understand why you would think that it doesn't make sense, and how you think that iOS 3 being replaced serves to contradict it.

The observable in the first link is about people who bring their phone into the genius bar and need the phone to be replaced. It doesn't say anything about what version they had when they came in, or what version they had when they left.

It also says nothing about whether the users even use their phones as iPods - or whether, if they do, they had an existing collection of music before they got the phone. (One can, after all, buy new music over the air).

So could you elaborate?

Perhaps the Genius Bar will upgrade/update your phone for you? I know they do similar things for non-techsavvy customers on OSX.

Luddite here: I hate syncing my phone. It freezes my computer. It freezes my phone. Apple tries to install new stuff that may or may not work etc etc etc. I just find it very unfun to sync my phone.

You're not the only one. I still remember the iPod days where syncing might mean "erase all of your music and replace it with the 5 songs on the computer you plugged it in to."

I don't trust apple, and it's really sad, because they generally have some good products.

Look at what happened to the iPhone 3G when you "upgraded" it to the new OS; it stopped being functional (answering a call could take 5-10 seconds. Launching an app equally long, etc). To the point where I actually had to jailbreak mine to get it into a usable state again.

I know I'm wrong, but my perception is that when iTunes gets a new version, the new version is there to take away some previous functionality (breaking things like ourtunes, for instance).

So while I have synced my phone, I generally avoid it. Every time the "syncing" screen comes up, I cancel it.

Apple's entire stack (hardware, software, support software) is built on the assumption that you're going to play by their rules.

Example 1: "erase all of your music and replace it with the 5 songs on the computer you plugged it in to"

If you plug your iPod in to a computer and "sync" it, and said computer only has 5 songs on it, what do you expect to happen? Apple intends for you to sync your iPod with your own music library. Anything else is sacrilege in the church of the RIAA, and is therefore not accommodated.

Example 2: "Look at what happened to the iPhone 3G when you "upgraded" it to the new OS; it stopped being functional (answering a call could take 5-10 seconds. Launching an app equally long, etc). To the point where I actually had to jailbreak mine to get it into a usable state again."

I used an iPhone 3G on iOS 4. It was bad. It was slow and unreliable. I'm not sure why they didn't lock it to iOS 3, other than the fact that Apple marches forward, with or without its user base. I guess maybe that's Apple's message to us. "We're headed that'a way, with or without you."

Example 3: "...the new version is there to take away some previous functionality (breaking things like ourtunes, for instance)"

Straight from OurTunes FAQ: "ourTunes is the continuation of several open source projects designed to allow you to browse and download from other people's iTunes Music Shares." Are you really surprised that Apple broke this? Apple believes in forming relationships with organizations like the RIAA. It's the reason they were able to deliver products like iTunes Match. Large portions of iTMS + iCloud feature set couldn't have been done without these agreements. Look at the legal battle that Amazon and Google are facing because they didn't get a deal signed.

Now, don't get me wrong. None of the examples I rebutted above mean you're wrong. It just means that you're trying to use your device in a way that Apple didn't design it to be used. That's a huge ideological road block for some people. I don't blame you one bit.

For anyone who doesn't want to walk the Apple path, I think there are better choices. However, that doesn't mean you'll have less yak shaving to do, it just means that the manufacturer won't stand in your way.

Example 1: Except that "sync" is far removed from what the overwhelming majority of people wanted to do with their device. The idea was to plug it in, and get some of the music from my friend's computer.

Does this go against what Apple wants? Yes. Obviously, and for obviously reasons.

Example 2: Oh come on. They intentionally broke the phone in hopes that it would get people to upgrade to an iPhone4. This had nothing to do with "marching forward", installing iOS4 on the 3G hardware was a mistake, and if apple didn't know that it was a mistake, they're incompetent (and they're not incompetent).

Example 3: I think this highlights exactly what we're talking about here. Apple doesn't have their users interest in mind, which is why some of us don't trust them.

I think maybe you misread me. I'm not saying you're wrong for wanting these things, but you have to acknowledge these facts:

The music industry doesn't want you doing exactly what you outline in example 1; don't be surprised when companies who are in bed with them support their position.

Example 2: That's what "marching forward with or without you" is. They upgraded iOS without much regard for users on hardware that was only a generation old. I suffered through the same thing. I'm pretty sure we're agreeing here.

Example 3: You seem to be conflating trust with expectation. Trust is "Believe in the reliability, truth, ability, or strength of" according to Google. I trust that Apple is going to behave exactly as they always have. You might expect them to do something different, but that doesn't have anything to do with trust. If you do trust them to do something like enable you to copy music from your friends' computers through a simple sync utility, your trust is misplaced, and my point still stands. You might have unresolvable ideological differences with Apple.

My iPhone 3G currently runs iOS 4 without any issues. Overall it is at about the same speed as it was before on iOS 3. That being said, my iPad 2 is blazing fast and I can't wait to have the money saved up to upgrade.

There is a "Manually manage music" checkbox for iPods, which lets you drag and drop stuff mostly like any other device. If you hate syncing so much, why haven't you just checked that?

Syncing works for me, and probably does for most other people out there as well. In most cases, it's pretty good at putting the latest and greatest on my device without me having to do much except plug it in. If that doesn't work for you, okay, but if the manual option is there, why aren't you using it?

Syncing worked well for several of my non-technical friends until they plugged it into another computer and it nuked their music. Most people don't realize that's an issue until it happens.

I avoid updating iTunes because every time I do Apple has introduced some new gimmick that's taking another 256mb of ram and making it less useful to run in the background. On my netbook I can barely use iTunes and open a Google Doc because the scrolling causes the music to stutter. I've actually started using WMP when I have a lot of work to do in Docs as it's the only way I'm not hearing stammering music.

Strange how the only thing I've changed on my netbook in literally a year is iTunes and it never used to pull this shit before that Genius and DJ thing appeared.

The worst thing about iTunes on the Mac is that it's absolutely killed the market for any kind of alternative player. I started writing a simpler, leaner player a few years ago but gave up when I realized nobody was going to use it.

iTunes, even on my macbook pro, is a pig. It ends up eating 99% of my CPU, and requiring a force-quit almost every day for me.

What happened, Apple? I get that iTunes is trying to be a million things, but why?

The best thing they could do is enhance playback from the Finder a little bit, so you could play not just one track but a whole 'folder'/album. Maybe you can do this on Lion.

iTunes is an abomination at this point. I prefer using Spotify even just for local files.

I strongly advise you to try foobar2000 or pretty much any other music player but iTunes if you're on Windows. Once I switched, a good deal of my computer frustration was gone. iTunes on Windows is a freezing, memory hogging, constantly updating, useless feature adding piece of crap. Virtually all its major competitors are much, much better. I hear it's not so bad on a Mac, but avoid it like the plague if you're on Windows.

Unfortunately, none of these people will use iCloud until they buy a new phone, since they're even less likely to be updating the OS.

Speaking of that, I'm wondering how iOS version updates gain market share so quickly if 50% of them never sync?

http://www.readwriteweb.com/mobile/2011/01/what-percentage-o...

My guess is that the typical iPhone user who frequents a genius bar is a recent purchaser unfamiliar with the equipment, and there haven't been that many major updates out since they bought their phone. Over time, I'd assume that people would be less likely to need to go to the Apple Store for support. There is also the fact that iPhone sales are growing year-to-year and quarter-to-quarter, further increasing the representation of recent purchasers.

I don't think "50% of people who visit genius bars" is the same as "50% of iPhone users", by a long shot.

Sounds like a great reason to introduce new hardware in the fall that takes advantage of the new device setup process and wireless syncing to iTunes/iCloud.

iOS 5 is better on iPhone 5.

They'll be using it once they've been to the Genius bar. Bear in mind that some of those 50% will have been repeat offenders (some of the other 50% too since they'll have had their phone updated only at the Genius bar).

I've had my phone for over a year and I never knew what it meant to sync the phone until I read the article and discussion today.

I've rarely even turned on my computer at home since I got the phone; consequently, 99% of my browsing is done on a mobile device.

someone in our shared office never connected her iPhone 3GS with her computer. She was still running 3.2.1 until I helped her to upgrade to 4.3.3.

Yeah I can back that one up - 3 out of 4 of my iPhone using friends don't understand that the phone has a OS that needs to be updated and don't remember having attached the phone to a computer with iTunes.

3.2.x was never released for iPhone. It was an iPad-only release. That said, I get what you're saying.

Probably meant 3.1.2, which is what I'm still running on my 3G, because the jump up to 4.0 was so painfully slow.

I backup my parents' iPad on a monthly basis and apply any OS updates. They only sync when they want stuff they can't get directly on the device itself (via say, iTunes, Netflix or Youtube), usually music.

If I'm not around, no sync/backup occurs. Totally believable that some folks have never done it.

This figure might be useful if we knew how long the average Genius Bar customer has had their phone. If the average is two weeks, then it's not all that impressive.

I am probably like many in that I have one cable for my phone and it is in my bedroom where I charge it, whereas I use my computer in another room. This makes syncing inconvenient. Additionally, everything but new iTunes content arrives wirelessly and iTunes on the phone doesn't announce new content is available on the computer, there is never anything "missing" on the phone.

What about accounting for the massive selection bias of people who would actually visit the Genius Bar in the first place and combining that with the total number of people who visit the Genius Bar with their iPhones at all. I am guessing the number represents a tiny fraction of total iPhone users.

I remember I synced my iPhone the first day I got it, uploaded all my music, and then never plugged it back into my computer for the next month. One month later, it crashed for some unknown reason, and I had to re-add 110 contacts by hand. Absolutely brutal.

Why would you ever add contacts by hand? Just make sure they're in your address book and sync away.

Presumably he had added those 110 contacts over the last month.

I rarely sync my iPhone because the laptop I'd used to set up my iTunes with is a 6 year old POS(and I don't mean cash register.) It takes several minutes to launch iTunes and up to 2 hours to sync(excluding the time to download any updates.) Now, I only sync when there's a major update to iOS and even then, it's an all night process. I'd transfer my stuff to my new MacBook but I don't have a flash drive big enough to handle everything. More than likely when Lion comes out(and I get it because I want the bugs worked out before I take the plunge) I'll migrate everything, but since Apple no longer does that when you get a new Mac, it hasn't been a priority for me.

I am assuming you have ethernet running to both? Share the iTunes folder, copy it over the network, simple.

How do you think the Lion migration is going to work?

If both laptops have wireless, why not use that? Or grab yourself a cat5 cable from somewhere and link them directly? You don't need to sneakernet between laptops unless something is broken in one.

It does not surprise me, Same with Android, I bet > 50/75% of people who have bought Android does not know its Google/Android and hav'nt downloaded a single app

Yup, but they don't have to.

Neither do iOS users. What is your point?

Wow, personally I couldn't live without the smart playlists.

EDIT: Would whoever downvoted me care to explain why? Not syncing = not using iTunes smart playlists (perhaps better described as rule-based auto playlists). This is a major feature to me. Clearly without syncing a lot of people don't even try this feature out. Seems a shame. I know not everyone would be of the same mind, but that's not the point.

If you purchase music from iTunes on your phone, then sync, it'll wipe out your music more often than not.

Hence, people avoid doing this.

It gives you a pop-up warning though?

It's entirely non-obvious from a UI perspective that you need to right-click on the device and choose 'transfer purchases' though.

I had thought this was incompetence on Apple's part (specifically the iTunes team) but perhaps it was a semi-deliberate broken offering to prepare people for iCloud?

Not true. The default behavior is to sync purchased apps, music, and books from the device back to the computer.

It's opt-in (you have to read and confirm an iTunes dialog box) which disqualifies it from being a default.

I know someone who never syncs, and the real missing feature that isn't even in iOS 5 is a way to organize your photo roll on the camera. No way to create folders or add captions. iOS 5 adds basic enhancement stuff, but none of the other features you need to really replace iPhoto.

Back when I owned an iPhone, I used to sync it every other day. Since I switched to Android, I sync every few weeks. Software geared towards syncing versus software geared towards cloud services; it's all about how the OS is designed.

I guess a better explanation of my point is: This surprises me, because it's iOS. If it were Android, I'd be surprised if 10% of people connected their phones to their computer ever.

I've never synced my iPad at least. When I still used an iPhone, going from Bluetooth sync I had used between my Mac and various Nokia phones for many years to wires and iTunes felt like a really big step backwards.

Did anyone else assume the HN community was made up of people who aren't incompetent until now?

I'm not defending iTunes' current direction, but honestly. The sheer number of people so intimidated by their phones & iTunes that they just bypass the whole mess is very sad. If you can't spend all of 5 minutes figuring out how to sync the device you bought, then I seriously wonder why you are browsing a site like this.

iTunes & the sync model is a little convoluted for your average user, but c'mon guys. Step it up a little. If you can't figure out how to sync your iPhone without wiping it, please close your HN account ASAP.

It's not cause it's hard. It's because it's a pain the ass

It's really not, though. That's a good reason to not sync regularly, there is no excuse for being an HN member and not being able to sync at all without wiping the device.

Again, you're assuming "can't" instead for many of these people it's "Why would I waste my time syncing".

I have more apps than fit on many of my devices for instance. I have iPad and iPhone versions of the same apps in many cases.

Syncing only turns into pain as it's a pain to get exactly what you want on each device when you have a few hundred apps to go through.

All of my contacts and really anything important is in the cloud. All pictures are copied off from a program that doesn't suck, etc.

It's free and easy to just install the few apps I want on each device through the store.

Phones need syncing? Whenever I log into a new Android phone, I get all my apps, calendar entries, contacts, etc. I didn't realize there was any other way.

My gut doesn't believe this. I imagine the apple purchasers buying the apple experience. This seems very odd.

50% does not tell us the whole story. We need absolute number to make sense of this data.

my mom asked me the other day what the word 'sync' meant. Honestly. To some it may be an alien word in the context of their devices/data.

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