Double bongcloud: why grandmasters are playing the worst move in chess | Hacker News Reader

Double bongcloud: why grandmasters are playing the worst move in chess

theguardian.com

142 pointsbloat48 comments

As is so often the case in chess, a basic surveil of the theory can open up novelties in GM games.

The seminal text 'Winning with the Bongcloud', is heartily recommended for anyone looking to understand this new opening.

Here is a pdf link: http://i.4pcdn.org/tg/1401479151063.pdf

That is indeed a gem, thanks. I liked the list of references.

- The Really Complete Idiot's Guide to Chess by Wolff

- How to Beat Your Dog at Chess by Chandler

I don't know anything about chess, but I think this rule basically applies to any game played at a high level.

I used to be a top 10 player in a 90's online game and I often used anonymous accounts (smurf accounts) for fun. One day as a joke I attempted a playing style that mimicked a complete novice (just moving the mouse with no keyboard input) and it was so effective it became a normal part of my repertoire. Eventually others took notice and it just became part of the game.

While the name suggests you must be high off your bong to make this unconventional move, it may be named after Lenny Bongcloud[1].

1. https://www.chess.com/member/lenny_bongcloud

Edit:

Here is a thread where Chess.com users apparently name the opening after him in 2008: https://www.chess.com/forum/view/general/the-life-and-times-...

The name has nothing to do with any player, the name is just a joke with being high

I disagree entirely and completely believe the opening was named after "King" Lenny, certainly on chess.com it was named the "bongcloud" in his honor. He was one of the most famous and beloved personalities on the chess.com forums in its early days with a hippie avatar faithfully preaching the virtues of the bongcloud. People were inspired by his message of peace and good times on a forum dominated by overly serious players.

The opening itself certainly predates Lenny Bongcloud but try to find mentions of the "Bongcloud" opening before around 2008.

Lenny Bongcloud was a legend on early chess.com. im pretty sure it is based on him. His elo was super low because he would just try to get his king to the other side of the board. (Why he used that opening). He used a picture of a hippy as his avatar.he would write in a way on his profile that had a cheech and chong vibe.

That seems unlikely, since the term has been around for decades.

Can you find any references before Jan 20, 2008?

2008 is 2 decades ago, in case you haven't looked at a calendar recently.

Thirteen years is indeed less than two decades, I'm sorry to have to inform you.

Well, it's 13 years ago. But, more importantly, that is the date when Chess.com forum named the opening after Lenny Bongcloud (see my edit).

I'm asking just because I'm interested in the origins, and an earlier reference would be relevant.

I've never seen anyone who refer to "13 years" as "decades".

I came here to post this, it's a little disheartening to see everyone glaze over his memory. He was known for exclusively trying to play racing kings even when his opponents were just playing normal chess, which yielded him one of the worst scores on chess.com

It obviously wasn't in this game, but if a stronger player played this against me I'd interpret it as an insult to my relative skills, like offering to spot me a knight. Or calling me a patzer (true). And then I'd try to beat them anyway. If they win the insult is deserved, and maybe they should spot me a knight too in the next game.

eh, i sometimes play it just to challenge myself and i'm truly terrible. it's fun to get new lines and give the oppo a laugh.

From the article:

"Carlsen used it last October in the first game of a speed chess final win over the American grandmaster Wesley So, who confessed to its psychological effects in the aftermath: “It’s hard to forget the game when someone plays f3 and Kf2 and just crushes you. That’s so humiliating.”"

Nit against tfa: 1. f3 ... 2. Kf2 is the Hammerschlag or the Fried Fox Attack, not the Bongcloud.

To me it's very clear Nakamura didn't want to lose to Carlsen's Bongcloud, so he responded in kind with one.

It was a smart move on Hikaru's part, IMO.

When one GM does it, yes, amusing.

But when both repeat to perform a Grandmaster draw they're kind of destroying the value to spectators, as in any other sport the fans would revolt if both teams were so willing to not put up a struggle.

Some tournaments have had restrictions and incentives against this at least e.g. you won't get invited back if you have too many GM draws, or the game has to have a reasonable length and the arbiter won't allow such a draw, or they reset the pieces and make you start over if you draw too soon...

Well, Magnus was the host of the tournament IIRC...

ok but in any other sports most is played over 1 or two matches. here it can be 8 / 10 matches against the SAME player to know the winner

And unlike other sports, in chess you're always at risk of losing your points even when you're a world famous GM

Any other?

NBA, NHL, and MLB all play 7 game playoff series.

My understanding is that early draws were generally condoned in this specific case bc this tournament format was especially long-winded (15 games before playoffs started). And, this was the final round of games.

Just create a format where every win is rewarded if you dont like (quick) draws. Why would a spectator care about a game that has nothing on the line?

Just play every game Armageddon style. White gets some extra time, but draws are a win for black.

If you want to add an additional meta-game element, allow the players to bid for how much less time they're willing to take to play as black.

I highly doubt we see this happen again, at least among top players. There are a lot of factors that made this situation possible at this exact moment and situation. You can argue the spectators were robbed of a good game, but since both players were ok with a draw because of the tourney format, I would argue they saw an event in chess that is interesting and unique... way more interesting than another 20 move snoozefest where both players setup defensively, trade down then draw.

I completely agree with this. Chess is all about rational decision making, within this tournament format drawing this game was rational. If anything, this shows that both Magnus and Hikaru are slightly more courageous to act rationally as opposed to romantically, compared to other players.

If Hikaru and Magnus played just another game, we wouldn’t be talking about it. Doing something unusual, funny, unique, draws attention and helps chess develop an audience. This was a low risk, higher profile situation to do it in.

I guess my lament is with wish that ultimately it would never be rational to perform a short GM draw -- i.e. there would be some short-term incentive they lose out on, and they would have long term reputation damage e.g. who wants to support a GM known for short boring draws?

GMs resign at times, even when one might think there's a microscopic chance of the winning side making a mistake later.

In some universes there could be American football leagues, say, where teams might resign in the 3rd quarter when they are behind far enough, and want to avoid injuries - but I don't think the concept exists now, no football team has ever voluntarily resigned before the end of the game.

I feel like it was actually rational for Magnus because it's literally his tournament. Even if the game actually mattered (it didn't), it might make sense to earn a lower individual result in exchange for making a lot more people aware that the tournament exists.

Well, it was the Carlson Invitational.

>as in any other sport the fans would revolt if both teams were so willing to not put up a struggle

People still watch the NFL Pro Bowl for some reason, as well as preseason/exhibition games in many sports, so this may not be universally true.

In most sports, when there is time remaining to play but the end result is already known, the lead players stop playing completely to protect their health.

As silly as this is from a chess point of view, I really genuinely enjoyed watching Hikaru Nakamura's face as he sees the opening. Needed a good laugh!

Maybe it's just the faint phonetic similarity, but this strikes me as the chess analogue to Bogosort: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogosort

This reminds me of Bobby Fischer's (rumored) KF2 blitz game against Nigel Short: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7B9p2PrsKWY

TL;DR: for "lolz".

Actually, it's not that long and a light-hearted read. It is nice to see a bit of humor inserted into what is only a game.

more accurate would be:

None of the players had anything to win as both qualified already. So in order to hide their preparation they both played a wacky opening and straight into 3 fold repetition draw. And both had a bit of laugh about it.

... while also being pretty media savvy and calling a ton of attention to their sport, which is a pretty smart move.

Is there any particular reason for the repetition draw instead of just offering a draw?

That's boring, and the current top players are looking to have some fun. Chess has become something of a spectator sport on twitch.tv over the past year, and both the players in this article have been at the forefront of that movement. Every time someone trots out a bongcloud, chat goes absolutely bonkers. Using it in an actual tournament only elevates it further.

Often in tournament chess you cannot offer a draw for the first 10 moves. However a 3-fold repetition is automatically a draw.

The idea is to try and provoke games happening, even if the players come to the table wanting a draw (someone can still botch their opening!). Ultimately though, if GMs want a draw, they'll get it.

> However a 3-fold repetition is automatically a draw.

This is somewhat pedantic, but 3-fold repetition is not automatically a draw (at least not according to FIDE rules). A 3-fold repetition allows either player to claim a draw, but it doesn't allow an arbiter to declare a draw if neither player claims it. Only a 5-fold repetition allows someone other than the players to declare a draw.

I think it is a bit of a plausible deniability thing. Offering a draw after the first move looks bad. There may even be rules against offering a draw before the first X moves. It also takes prolonged confirmation to agree to a draw via repetition.

Many of these tournaments won't allow an offered draw before move ... 40 or something like that.

I completely agree with you. I see lots of people here trying to romanticise this into some spectacularly complex reasoning to make this a GM only move, but in reality I'm 99% sure they were just trolling.

They were both laughing like hell when they were playing and they both had nothing to lose.

Hikaru had been playing that move a lot recently for content in his media channels, Magnus being the cool guy that he is, played that move against him for lulz.

In the end, they both had fun, the viewers had fun and new funny article and videos were created about this game.

People: it's just for fun, not everything needs to be a classical serious thing all the time.

Just sit back and take some hits from the good ol bongcloud.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com