Atari 800XL PCB Remake | Hacker News Reader

Atari 800XL PCB Remake

ezcontents.org

89 pointsmariuz58 comments

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Excellent work! Now Atari 800XL joins a bunch of other retro PCB recreation projects:

Amiga 2000 PCB remake: https://github.com/Floppie209/Amiga2000-remake

Amiga 1200 remake: https://wordpress.hertell.nu/?p=587

Amiga 500+ remake: https://github.com/SukkoPera/Raemixx500

Amiga 3000 AGA *(AA3000+) remake: https://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=97670

Commodore 64C remake: https://github.com/KicadRetroArchive/Commodore64C

Commodore 128CE (work in progress): https://github.com/jolsson68/C128CE

I'm sure I'm missing a bunch so please leave links to other retro computer PCB projects.

C64 https://www.tindie.com/products/bobsbits/sixtyclone-commodor...

Got some photos of finished boards here:

http://talk.binarytask.com/task?id=8711454161308077109

Also OpenTendo https://github.com/Redherring32/OpenTendo

There is a bunch of chip replacements as well like the armsid and the 68k stuff like pistorm and buffee

Gerber files to the Atari 800XL PCB can be found here: https://github.com/marekl123/atari800xl

A little off topic but wondering if anyone remembers keying in and debugging the "game of the month" featured in Antic magazine (Atari 800)? You you have to hand type and debug pages of line number basic and the games were largely simple sprite games.

I hand typed apps on other 80s home computers. Credit to anyone who managed it on an Atari 400 which probably had the worst keyboard this side of a ZX81.

There was one worse: the one that came with the BASIC on the Atari 2600. And this was actually my first "computer" on which I wrote BASIC programs: an ATARI 2600 console.

The BASIC cartridge was coming with some kind of keyboard controller that you'd plug in the 2600's joystick ports.

It was horrible but it allowed to do simple programs and even draw colored lines etc. IIRC.

Oh yeah! been there done that. Somehow typing those damn things in was usually more fun than the actual game. At least, that's how I remember it.

My dad had an Atari 800XL, and typing in the games is what got me interested in development as I got older. Even in my early forties, typing in code from a book gives me more understanding than just reading code already handed to me.

I typed in pages of code for years, though mostly from Analog. At one point, they had pages of hex (or base36?) data lines and created a checksum process that would spit out the checksum after each line entry and you could check it against the magazine listing.

Basically, you were typing in ascii representation of machine code for pages on end for these assembly games.

This and GP: I do totally remember. Was a major pain but at the same time it felt like complete magic once you see the program running (even if, even for back then, it was often really bad). I didn't know how to program anything else than some BASIC yet, so it was a bit frustrating that these lines of data were just looking like random numbers, impossible for my 11 years old self to understand.

Now because I was a bit evil, when on summer camp (without my Atari 600 XL) I'd create small BASIC programs and mail them (snail mail, obviously) to my mom with accompanying instructions and SHE had to enter my program. Then I'd phone her and ask her what the program did : )

Compute! magazine had a similar system for Commodore machines..

I remember my sibling and I would take turns typing up pages of code and fixing the bugs to play a game. And then at the end of the night lose it all because we had no disk storage and the parents needed the TV.

Wow, that is harsh! I suppose it helped improve your typing though and you probably got better at identifying bugs.

Yes that is true. You get good at typing and debugging over the years. After a few years we did get a floppy drive so that helped a lot.

Yep. I learned to program on an Atari 400 using Antic and some other magazines. Gotta admit the amazement when I realized the power of changing a variable and it still working with new behavior.

Compute! magazine had really cool stuff (really nice monitor/debug program for instance) in hexdump format with checksum bytes on the end. They had a custom program that let you enter the hex, then calculated the checksum and compared it to the check digits entered. Prevented a LOT of typos :-)

I remember trying. I think I even got one program typed all the way in. I spent months trying to get some adventure game typed in, but never got all the way to the end. Eventually I disccoered BBSes, which were great until I hit my download limit and I hadn't managed to download anything that wasn't already on all the other BBSes that I frequented and so I didn't get much that way. Eventually I found archives on the internet, but by then I had already moved onto BSD - I did something with emulators, but not much.

And assembly, which I understood not at all when I was ten. So much effort and joy. I had a book with Eliza for Amstrad in it. Great fun.

I've noticed that among retro computer enthusiasts that the 800XL is the most loved of Atari's eight bit offerings. Can anyone explain?

To me, the original 800 was the best, but I don't know enough about Atari's eight bit offerings to understand the major differences.

64k vs 48k of memory seems like the biggest advantage for the 800XL.

The 800 was a pretty easy 64k upgrade and had 4 joystick ports for a proper game of MULE.

The 800XL sold the most units, so it's probably likely that more people had them, and thus more people have more nostalgia for them.

It is all about the nostalgia. I was introduced to this thing called "BASIC" on the 800XL and remember the joy of making the computer beep the theme from Close Encounters of the Third Kind.

This is true for me, my grandfather had one and it was the first computer I used with any regularity.

For me it was an aesthetic thing. The black modern look with metallic buttons it had was a departure from the beige that dominated computers of the time. Atari had a great design sensibility. The Atari 5200 was another great example of slick design for the time.

... except for the 5200's non-centering joysticks. Those essentially broke the platform.

The 800XL was a major price reduction from the original 800. In addition to manufacturing and component cost improvements, FCC regulations relaxed a bunch between the original revision and when the 800/600XL came out. So they were able to drop a boatload of RF shielding, just like the VIC-20 and C64 could. The inside of the original 800 looks like a bloody Faraday Cage.

And by that point in the 80s the original 1979 Atari 800 case design was starting to look really 70s. At least that's how it seemed to me as a kid. The 1200XL/800XL case looked so slick. It's up there with the Sinclair QL and some of the Japanese MSX machines in terms of case design, IMHO.

The QL was a beauty. Not sure if it was much more than skin deep but it looked great in a shop display.

The 800XL is probably one of my favorite 8-bit computers aesthetically, and definitly my favorite amongst ones that I own(C64, CoCo2, Ti-99/4a), thought the Ti-99/4a is close second with that black and metal design, it's just missing some sleekness.

the 800xl looked cool, 64k of memory and basically competed head on with c64 until the rise of the next gen Amiga/Atari ST, only to be obliterated by PCs once SVGA came along

Also Atari 800XL bill-of-materials (BOM) https://ezcontents.org/atari-800xl-bill-materials-bom

Mirror here : https://web.archive.org/web/20201122190319/https://ezcontent...

Mirror here: https://web.archive.org/web/20210314163530/https://ezcontent...

Is it actually possible to get all the required components brand new, or do you need to get them of old broken machines?

There where a similar project for the Amiga 500, but actually building a machine required getting chips of old boards, or buying them on eBay.

There were several custom chips, so I doubt all parts exist.

From my understanding -- POKEY chips are easy to get because they were in so many things other than the home computers (arcade games, some cartridges, etc.). SALLY is easy to build a replacement board for using off the shelf logic and a stock 6502, so less of a complicated situation than the 6510 in the C64. So that leaves the two graphics chips (ANTIC and GTIA).

There was a separate blog post about acquiring the parts: https://ezcontents.org/atari-800xl-bill-materials-bom Mirror: https://web.archive.org/web/20201122190319/https://ezcontent...

It looks like they pulled a few components from other systems, like a Atari 2600 Junior.

The thing that breaks on 800XLs is the flexPCB used for the keyboard. But you can buy a replacement:

https://www.8bitclassics.com/product/retronics-atari-600xl-8...

If you find an 800XL with the phenolic PCB keyboard you are better off- even if you step on it, you can fix it with soldering iron and wires.

The site's struggling for some; here's the Wayback Machine: https://web.archive.org/web/20210314163530/https://ezcontent...

Edit: and the mentioned service manual: https://archive.org/details/Atari800XLServiceManual

The C64 SID really was an improvement:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o321fq7O7-Q (Jump to 10:30 for Atari)

I wonder why 8-bit Atari failed against Commodore, must have been pricing?

The VIC-20 was released after the 400/800 but at half the price of the 400!

Then the failed launch of the 1200XL at the same time as the C64 at 1/4 of that price...

Jack Tramiel was a wizard of numbers! And getting people to work very hard!

Not for long. Tramiel developed a very bad reputation for screwing over retailers, and his management style led to longer term problems once his family took over Atari Corp. And the terms "platforms" and "compatibility" meant nothing to Commodore in that era. Each machine they built was incompatible with the next, and the C64 was the only truly successful one.

The Pokey had/has its own charm. The SID is nice, but that's hardly what was selling C64s.

Anyways, you're right, pricing. My cousin had an 800XL and I had a VIC-20 and my neighbour a C64. Given a choice, I would have taken the 800XL; its specs were so much better in so many ways and damn that case design was nice. But that product line was always more expensive. If the original 400/800 had been cheaper, Atari would have owned the industry and something like the C64 never would have succeeded. From many points of view it is a superior platform (apart, from as you say, the SID).

According to Wikipedia:

"After losing $563 million in the first nine months of the year, Atari that month announced that prices would rise in January, stating that it "has no intention of participating in these suicidal price wars".[48] The 600XL and 800XL's prices in early 1984 were $50 higher than for the Commodore VIC-20 and 64,[49] and a rumor stated that the company planned to discontinue hardware and only sell software."

Warner Bros axed things and Tramiel picked up the corpse after he was pushed out of Commodore.

I own them all now :-)

I just bought a first version C64 Reloaded:

http://move.rupy.se/file/reloaded_sink.jpg

Also in that picture RR-Net for instant loading of .prg and multiplayer. The Nunchuk64; an adapter for the new (S)NES Classic/Mini controllers:

It's some kind of revenge to play Super Mario Bros on the C64 with an original new NES controller from Nintendo!

I got the new transparent case too, waiting for the MechBoard64 keyboard and new Keycaps!

The VIC-2 chip also has it's upsides, even if the palette and 2-pixel-wide 4-color mode is weird; the community today is the most active and it's growing:

http://csdb.dk

Edit:

Atari: "by November 1983 one toy store chain sold the 800XL for $149.97"

C64: "In June 1983 the company lowered the price to $300, and some stores sold the computer for $199."

So it wasn't price, I guess software then!?

Maybe better ads? Maybe parents thought a computer from a "business machines" company was better than one from a video game company?

The 800XL OS and disk system were way better. The BASIC was better, though slower. The 800 keyboard is better than C64 which is slightly better than 800XL. The reason is that although the C64 keyboard is mushy, you can type faster on it for some reason.

Funny that the C64 was better at games!

2 of my favuorite recent releases:

https://sarahjaneavory.itch.io/zeta-wing

https://carletonhandley.itch.io/runn-n-gunn

Does the Atari get new games?

The Tramiels were notoriously tight with money, and would often just refuse to pay people when they thought they could get away with it.

We had some Vax 11/780s (for engineering and finance), and DEC's service technicians were instructed to collect a cashier's check at the door or walk away. I got handy with diagnostic software and a soldering iron.

In one incident, we had some Motorola VME/10 68K-based workstations that kept failing and needing things like motherboard replacements (they were not well designed). About a year after we pivoted development to the Atari STs (hey, dogfood...) Sam Tramiel asked me if we were still using the VME/10s.

"Hell no," I said, "They were pieces of junk. They're over there in a corner." I pointed to a corner where a couple of them were stacked up, gathering dust.

"Okay, we won't pay them, then," said Sam. He was grinning. I felt a little sick.

You really did not want Atari to owe you money, especially if you were a "little guy".

Did you guys ever bring up TOS / GEM etc. on those VME/10s? Or were they just for cross compiling?

Those were just cross-development for non-GUI stuff (BIOS, drivers and languages). Folks doing graphics bringup were mostly working on Apple LISA systems booted into CP/M-68K (ugh), since they were similar to the ST with a monochrome monitor.

Not sure if you pay attention to this stuff, but some folks recently brought EmuTOS up on the Apple Lisa. This was after some people got original DR GEMDOS 68K/GEM to boot on it again. So, from software archeology to full circle.

Thread here, if you Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/emutos/posts/4067291733301377

Mix of price, compatibility, dev support. Atari was behaving like a consumer electronics company and left the developers starved for information on the computer, while Commodore shipped every unit with a very comprehensive manual. The C64 was a clean break from predecessors in most respects and the VIC II was more straightfoward to program for typical raster graphics(even if it missed some of the neat features of Antic and CTIA/GTIA), while the Atari had a legacy install base with lower memory capacity. So, by the mid 80's the Commodore had become the defacto cheap game machine, in absence of new console competition. It was never a great applications computer, in fact(I/O limits derived from the low cost architecture meant it did less than an Apple II for many development and business tasks) but it hit a certain sweet spot of being a great first computer.

Atari after the Warner acquisition was a hugely dysfunctional company - there are a lot of proposed alternate histories where different projects got prioritized and execution was better, that would have given them a stronger position in the computer market. As it is, they still put out some pretty cool hardware.

De Re Atari was published by Atari and was a treasure trove of detailed material. I remember buying it (as a pre-teen) and devouring it, trying to imagine “who thought of all this stuff?!”

It didn’t ship with every unit, but any dev could easily get one, given I was able to get one as just an interested kid.

I still remember the magic of writing HBlank interrupt routines to change player-missile positions and colors to “reuse” PMs to get more than 4+4

Atari eventually provided excellent support for 3rd party developers, but for the first few years they didn't support any kind of 3rd party development and kept the technical documentation under lock and key. Atari also didn't want to cannibalize their game console business, so they restricted the types of 1st party games they would develop for the system.

As a result, they squandered their significant head start in the game-focused home computer market.

I understand it's not possible to copyright a schematic in terms of connections between components, so this is a fair game to copy, but the PCB layout is protected as an artwork. I don't know how this one is similar to original, but I could imagine you would like to move things around. Or is it too old to be bothered by that?

Can't see the site because it's down but it's highly unlikely this remake uses all the same components in all the same packages as the original. The Atari 800XL would used entirely through hole components and its unlikely all the chips are still available in DIP. So there will at least be a little change to accommodate modern packages. ( I suspect)

Probably needs an FPGA to replace the Atari custom graphics chips too.

Yeah my 800XL's memory chips blew a few years ago and it was really hard to get new ones. Though ebay helped me out.

But I think the custom ones will be even harder as they were completely custom design. Like POKEY and ANTIC.

I follow the vintage Mac community, and there are people there remaking classic Mac PCBs as drop-in replacements with the same chips since so many boards get eaten up by leaking PRAM batteries or old capacitors corroding the traces on the board. Most of the chips on the corroded board are still good (or at least the ones that are custom or no longer made) so you can desolder them from the dead donor board in the machine you bought and pop them in the new one

Site seems to be down. Seems an interesting idea though so will try later. 800XL was my first computer.

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