Refund of pre-installed Windows: Lenovo must pay 20k euros in damages
fsfe.org
fsfe.org
P.S.: there's an entertaining segment by ThePrimeagen in which he talks about his frustrating experience of ordering an X1 Carbon Extreme from Lenovo: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/909927791?t=00h32m16s
Model?
This bad boy was on clearance at a nearby Best Buy. Pretty nice comeup for the specs, and it's given me a new appreciation for Lenovo's consumer product build quality.
Some of Ideapad 100 series were completely mini X270, for example.
I'd be happy to see Lenovo impose this high-end manufacturing quality across all of it's lines.
Here's hoping/cerebrating that's forever in the past.
As an example, Aetna provides insurance to clients through Covered California and through other venues like the federal government. For the federal version, it's really easy to get stuff classified as out of network with a note from the provider that they don't accept Medicare assignment. For the Covered California version, it's virtually impossible to get out of network stuff covered because they will more or less trashcan notes from providers that don't accept Medicare assignment to avoid paying for those claims. My guess is the economics of each business unit/channel are different to the point where they make things easy for one plan and nearly impossible for another.
Video calls, occasional Android Studio. CS:GO maybe. Etc. Things like that.
A friend who worked at one OEM said it would cost $50 more to ship a machine with linux vs windows.
Pre-installing windows, bundling software (including telemetry - long history of this) makes Lenovo money at the time of sale, and afterwards.
Good job (and good fun) to this tenacious person. Glad for the outcome in his (and our) favor.
I'd use "spyware" instead of "telemetry" considering the shit Lenovo has done.
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2015/02/further-evidence-lenov...
Say a device you want to buy would cost $200, but because of stuff like pre-installing software, telemetry, etc. it is sold for $150. You just throw a custom OS on there / jailbreak it / run a few commands that kill the cruft, and you now have a clean device for a 25% discount.
On the other hand, the vast majority of people are not that technically proficient, and are either unaware or unable to defend themselves from aforementioned stuff. My parents recently bought a new Smart TV and if it wasn't for me they had no idea how much those log and send back to the mothership.
Then, if enough people actually are aware and combating this, it no longer is justifiable for the corporations and I lose my improptu discount. To me, a price I'm willing to pay to give others more privacy, but other people may not be so privileged.
Conversely, does anyone know if there's some way to re-use smart TV hardware? I had a Sony Android TV get smashed by a wayward child's actions some time ago and took all the boards out before recycling the rest, and I'd love to use it on my old dumb TV which has an aging Xbox 360 driving it, but I can't figure out how I'd get normal video output from the thing.
At the "more money but I just want a device I can run my own software on that works out of the box" the Shield TVs are great, you can throw an open source Android TV on it (not that the branded one is all that bad tbh).
The reason I wanted to see if I could get that Sony hardware running on some other screen (besides the re-use angle) is because Android TV gets you access to the first party Netflix and other streaming services with the proper UI. Netflix-via-Kodi is not really a very good user experience presently. You mention open source Android TV - is that something I could run on other kinds of devices? Can you get the Netflix etc. apps on it?
If you go fully open source on any device (Android TV or not) you lose full levels of Widevine (or whatever DRM) support. Apps like Netflix work on open source builds of Android TV but you won't get high quality streams as a result. I think Disney+ was one that refused to work at all, the rest seemed to run. So if you're doing "open source" for purity reasons those are the types tradeoffs you have to make regardless of the hardware or software you choose.
OTOH if you're just looking for a decent unrestricted first party external Android TV box that gets updates (old model is 6 years running on updates now) and has full play store/app support the Shield TV is $150 new and will run all of the apps at 4k 60 HDR out of the box. It can even be officially unlocked and rooted but again some apps will stop working (e.g. Disney+) if you do that. Shield TV Pro is $200 if you want additional RAM and built in app storage. Comes with a nice remote too.
Shouldn't it output digital audio over HDMI?
Under Raspbian? It seemed to need a lot of fiddling to be usable so I went with the OpenElec image. Later switched to OSMC, still working great on a 1gb RPi 2.
(You can get "universal scaler" boards which can drive any panel.)
Then why is it that, whenever I see a choice, the Linux option is always cheaper?
For instance, I just went do Dell's site and randomly selected a laptop (https://www.dell.com/pt-br/work/shop/isv-workstations-certif...). The default operating system option is "Windows 10 Pro 64bit Brazil Portuguese"; if instead I select the "Ubuntu Linux 18.04" option, the price gets R$ 686,00 lower (and that's before removing the "Dell Endpoint Security" antivirus option, which decreases the price by another R$ 240,00).
https://www.techjunkie.com/why-would-a-linux-laptop-be-more-...
> Bloatware Saves You Money > Because those companies who make those titles pay fees to have that software pre-installed on your new computer. They see that new desktop as a big billboard, waiting to be populated. And, boy do they load it up! > This Ubuntu installation doesn’t come with any bloatware, Dell isn’t making the kick-back, hence it increases cost.
> Other Costs > But, let’s not forget that these companies are USED to Windows. All of their internal processes are based around Windows systems. All their support personel are trained in Windows. > So, smaller supply and a dedicated demand equals higher cost. Basic economics. > Not to mention the additional cost of support staff for these laptops, who need to be trained in an entirely different environment
Actually sorry, this is not accurate. Canonical shipped Ubuntu with an Amazon search app, does plenty of telemetry, and forces updates. Unless you are very technically proficient it is very hard to disable all of it. (I remove or neutralize motd, appport, snapd, ubuntu-report, unattended-upgrades, ubuntu-advantage, whoopsie and more)
> does plenty of telemetry,
The telemetry that is sent on install does ask your permission to share and shares very innocuous data to boot
>The data includes information about your PC’s hardware, including the manufacturer, BIOS version, and the model of your CPU. It also includes information about your software, such as the version of Ubuntu you installed, your chosen desktop environment, whether you’re using the Xorg or Wayland display server, and the options you chose while installing Ubuntu. Other information, such as your time zone, information about your partitions, and your display’s resolution is also sent.
The other major source of leaks is the crash reporting tool which . Note that with open source software you don't have to trust the vendor you can actually see the source to the the tools that are communicating and convince yourself that they are serving legitimate needs that don't violate your privacy.
> forces updates
You can absolutely control updates of normal packages. Snap is indeed defective in that regard but nothing is forcing you to use it.
> Unless you are very technically proficient it is very hard to disable all of it
Packages are removable in band with the same tools used to manage all packages on the system. This isn't an example of extreme competence its basic understanding of the tools needed to use the system.
> motd
Not a data leak
> snap
a shitty tool but not one that harms your privacy or inherently does anything to you by existing just don't install snaps.
> ubuntu-report
This is the tool that reports basic info about your system after asking you once on initial install removing it... does nothing. If you don't want crash reporting its a checkbox in settings.
> ubuntu-advantage
This is something you have to sign up for having the package on your system isn't leaking your data
> Apport
This is disabled by default in stable releases. To disable sudo systemctl disable apport.service like every other service this is once again basic usage. It also doesn't leak your info without you allowing it even if enabled. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Apport
- set up a ubuntu system
- see what traffic it generates
- get it to stop
You will get pretty proficient at how apt and systemd work, especially after a couple release cycles and things get re-activated, re-enabled or re-installed.
Oh wait until you see how much Windows does of it. Its always about how much.
So assuming what you posted is true, why would companies offer a discount for the linux version?
And even if not, there is no guarantee the X will be given away to the customer, rather than go to the bottom line?
It kinda makes sense to just buy the laptop with windows and then flatten and re-install linux.
More like malware. I've even seen OEMs shipping firmware that just reinstalls their software even when users reinstall their operating systems. Lack of Linux support becomes a feature in these cases.
Clearly it was never about the 42 Euro license, it was about the principles.
As always companies like Lenovo only act like this way because we passively allow them to do so.
Also because their total penalty for this behaviour, three years of legal time-wasting to avoid their responsibilities, is $20,000.
That sounds dangerously like common sense. I'm not familiar with Italian law but that judgment looks pretty decent and runs along fairness style grounds and it would have been made after consideration. If IT law is precedent based that may be quite a powerful result.
Common law as this system is referred to is specific to former British Empire colonies. So it never applies to continental Europe. [0]
The precedent here is making it not economical for Lenovo to engage in a lengthy litigation process. Such tactics are generally employed against consumers, to dissuade them from suing. It's nice to see it backfiring, and indicative of a healthy court system, IMO.
The post make is more seems like it would be general consumer protection laws.
Because if its based on general consumer protection laws, then how would that translate to choosing your own operating systems on smartphones, smartwatches, gaming consoles and the like?
> If you do not accept and comply with these terms, you may not use the software or its features. You may contact the device manufacturer or installer, or your retailer if you purchased the software directly, to determine its return policy and return the software or device for a refund or credit under that policy. You must comply with that policy, which might require you to return the software with the entire device on which the software is installed for a refund or credit, if any.
And the article says:
> Finally, in December 2020, the Court of Monza rejected all Lenovo's arguments, confirming that the right to reimbursement of the pre-installed software was due. The sentence pointed out that the manufacturer itself had expressly assumed this obligation in the Windows licence.
I wonder what they mean by "device." Device as in the hard drive or device as in the entire computer? Surely having to return the entire computer defeats the point of Windows' refund policy?
At the price of their hardware that isn't a surprise. Essentially it is just another bundle, and upgrades do not eat into the sales of new hardware.
Do I get a refund if I want to hack my smart TV? The nav system in the car?
The worst part, at least for me, is that is becoming harder and harder to install linux with this new notebooks. Mine didn't come with lan port, and Debian didn't recognize the wifi and gpu, because both are proprietary. So, I would have to spend 4 hours at least working around everything. Sad
It's hard to take this seriously.
A clean install uses less disk space, and it removes accumulated cruft that you can’t otherwise delete easily. I think minor updates worked after that for a while.
This should happen more often. Especially if it's a big company trying to leverage the legal system to bully individuals or drive competitors out of business.
Someone start a country with free healthcare and consumer protections, you can tax me what you want.
I just want to live in a society where everyone is taken care of, not where businesses make the laws.
Whatever means you use to reinstall even if it's a custom built machine without a Windows key in the BIOS you login to your Microsoft account and the license/activation "just works".
Loooooong gone are the days of typing in license keys or calling Microsoft on the phone if there is a problem activating/re-activating.
If that doesn't address your concerns you should't use Windows in the first place. Just as I don't for the vast majority of my machines, workflow, etc.
I think this is an antiquated idea that presupposes that the definition of the product you are buying from a company is a "general purpose computing device".
The overwhelming majority of users of devices just want the value that a product maker offers. We're now completely surrounded by devices that offer no such freedoms, and we're completely reliant on networked services where we also have no choice in the matter.
Should I be able to sue google for including chrome os on chromebooks? Apple for preinstalling osx? Android? Ios? What about the os for my cars' display, or my smart tv?
This feels like trying to force a company to offer a product that somebody wishes they offered.
Yes, because they don't know any better.
If all users knew how vendor lock-in affected the entire OX (ownership experience) in all its aspects, then perhaps they would choose differently.
And what about making phone calls from computers now? I guess we shouldn't call THAT a computer anymore because it's used to make phone calls? It's a desk-phone?
Saying that the only real 'computers' are generic beige boxes that can run any old OS is just gatekeeping, and basically irrelevant. That's not what the word computer means to most people.
"Here you go!"
"This is... A board with a hole in it? I want a drill."
"This is better for regular people: the hole already exists, you can screw things right to it."
"Yes, but I want to drill several holes in my wall. I don't want a brand new board with a single hole, I want a drill to make holes."
"Most people, when they say they want a drill, really actually mean they want a hole. So we call these hole-boards drills now."
"But it's not what it means. I want an actual drill."
"Ugh, why all the gatekeeping, it's irrelevant, just buy this 'drill.'"
All of those examples have the hardware manufacturer bundling their own software, as opposed to tying a third-party software product that to the sale of the hardware. And none of those companies have quite the history that Microsoft does with illegal tying. So there's plenty of room to draw a line that allows Chrome OS and iOS but requires Lenovo to make Windows optional. (I'm not saying that's the most sensible place to draw the line, just that there are clear distinctions to be made here.)
Yes
You can sue anyone for anything... the question is what are you suing the company for? Providing a product in a way you disagree with?