Hacker News Reader

Comment by sleavey | Hacker News Reader

Ctrl+F "B12". Here's a quoted reference from the article:

> [V]egans exhibited a higher estimated prevalence of inadequacies for some nutrients, in particular vitamin B12 (69.9% in men and 83.4% in women <55 years of age), compared to meat-eaters. […] Our study highlighted that, overall, self-reported vegetarians and vegans may meet nutritional recommendations.

Those numbers are crazy high. I am not an expert in any of this, so take this with a healthy dose of skepticism, but I wonder if a vegan diet can be considered healthy without supplements given the current range of available non-animal B12 sources. I think there are some algae sources but I'm not sure you can get enough B12 without getting too much of something else. There's also the question of how efficiently you absorb the nutrients in the food; I heard it's harder to absorb B12 from algae than from cheese for example. Happy to be shown evidence for or against...

View on HN

I think it’s important to note that due to soil deficiencies (because of intensive farming) and factory farming, 90% [1] of B12 supplements are given to livestock. Regardless of your diet it’s good to make sure you are getting everything you need and are not deficient in anything. I think veganism raises awareness of that fact. [1] https://baltimorepostexaminer.com/carnivores-need-vitamin-b1...

As a life-long vegetarian, I noticed significant and permanent health, mood, and cognition benefits once I started supplementing vitamin B, vitamin D3, and omega-3 fatty acids (from algae) daily.

I have noticed cheese lifts my mood often.

That might be because there’s an opioid related compound in some types of cheese.

Interesting question, set me to wondering how other primates get vitamin B12, turns out Gorillas voraciously eat Termites:

http://gorillaprotein.com/2010/01/07/where-do-gorillas-get-t...

Wow, interesting! That reminds me of something I vaguely remember reading, that cows get some essential nutrients from accidentally eating insects and soil on grass. Yet another important aspect insects play in ecosystems.

If the nutrients are essential to them, I guess you could argue that their grass-insect eating customs are not a accident.

Depends whether you're ascribing intentionality to the cow, or to evolution. I'd go with the cow, because evolution barely has goals, let alone thoughts.

No, evolution just rewards, what works.

The cow certainly won't think about eating insects. It just eats gras. (and I doubt it has a concept of "gras")

The cow probably does have a concept of grass. But I do think it probably isn't intentionally eating the insects, and therefore I'd call it “accidental”.

Well, concept in the meaning of: the mostly green things on the ground with that certain smell. And sure they certainly know the different types of gras and go for the ones they like. And they likely like the types that are best for them overal, because the cows that did go for the wrong types did not prosper so much in history.

Instinctal pattern matching.

But that probably includes the insects in the grass.

So I meant no concept of grass in the meaning of: Photosynthesis based plants of that family.

Concept of smell and taste of a certain patch of grass (including the insects) - certainly.

> So I meant no concept of grass in the meaning of: Photosynthesis based plants of that family.

Oh, certainly not. But, then, neither did humans until the last few centuries.

But humans did probably saw the connection between sun and growth and "plant" in general, while the cow just sees the grass. This is what I meant with concept.

A cow won't divide between vegan and meat. It just eats what it likes. Apparently grass with insects. Because normal grass has insects with it.

Interesting, since many years I eat like a monkey (mostly fruits and some plants) + rice complement sometimes. And I turned to very local food (either foraged or a local producer), I eat small bugs, insects, slugs, ants, ... not really intentionally (I try to filter as much as possible), but it's just hard to avoid, and it doesn't really affect taste and as you say, they're marvelous nutrients in the end. Similarly, I tend to eat the most of fruits, their skin, etc.. and I can really feel a difference with standard shiny supermarket fruits/legumes, they are so less "nutritive"

It also reminds me of bears, they're often portrayed as honey-hunters, but in the end they are likely most interested by eating bees and larvae as well

Vegan for 30 years here. I've never really worried about diet at all, except I guess reading about it a bit in the very beginning. Last medical checkup I got, levels of everything were fine.

B12 is added as a supplement to soy milk and some other vegetarian stuff (here in Australia, at least, and I assume elsewhere), so I've never needed to worry about that.

Most don't worry and it isn't A Good Thing. Most vegans need more B12 than they get. It really does require bloodwork at a doctor more often to eat, let's call it, outside the norm. Otherwise it could cause problems.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32769530/

> Most vegans need more B12 than they get

Is it true? I don't know. What are the sources for the claim?

I looked up one paper linked to from this article, How prevalent is vitamin B12 deficiency among vegetarians?[0] That paper was made, it says, by searching the literature for other papers that mention B12 deficiency. It says in the abstract "The deficiency rates reported for specific populations were as follows: 62% among pregnant women...". I looked into that figure, as I read somewhere else that pregnant women were one of the groups with lowest B12, or at least greatest risk of deficiency.

When you lookup where that figure came from: "Only one of the studies included pregnant women. This study was conducted in Ethiopia and included participants whose diet was based on either maize or enset."

So I looked up that study, Zinc, Gravida, Infection, and Iron, but Not Vitamin B-12 or Folate Status, Predict Hemoglobin during Pregnancy in Southern Ethiopia[1] The abstract begins:

"The etiology of anemia during pregnancy in rural Southern Ethiopia is uncertain. Intakes of animal-source foods are low and infections and bacterial overgrowth probably coexist. We therefore measured the dietary intakes of a convenience sample of Sidama women in late pregnancy who consumed either maize (n = 68) or fermented enset (Enset ventricosum) (n = 31) as their major energy source. Blood samples were analyzed for a complete blood count, vitamin B-12 and folate status, plasma ferritin, retinol, zinc, albumin, and C-reactive protein (CRP). The role of infection and gravida was also examined. Dietary intakes were calculated from 1-d weighed records. No cellular animal products were consumed. Of the women, 29% had anemia, 13% had iron deficiency anemia, 33% had depleted iron stores, and 74 and 27% had low plasma zinc and retinol, respectively."

I can't actually find the 62% figure in that paper.. well, it says

"Unlike ferritin, neither plasma vitamin B-12 nor MMA was a significant predictor of hemoglobin, despite the high prevalence of elevated concentrations of MMA (i.e. 62%). This discrepancy is attributed to nonfunctional vitamin B-12 analogs present in the plasma of women consuming fermented enset, as discussed earlier, as well as the absence of any hematopoietic defects associated with vitamin B-12-deficiency anemia."

– so I guess it comes from there. But the findings of that paper seem quite a way from finding that pregnant women in general have 62% B12 deficiency, to say the least! Yet these things trickle up to popular articles that announce such findings as Facts. And people feel called to give ominous warnings about disregarding them...

[0] https://academic.oup.com/nutritionreviews/article-pdf/71/2/1...

[1] https://academic.oup.com/jn/article/138/3/581/4670259

Huh that explains why my B12 levels are fine then, I guess (as of two months ago anyway). I live for soy milk (vegan, Aussie)

It's not just veganism. I have incredibly low vitamin D because I've been sitting at home in closed curtains for the past year. My doctor warned me I'd get impaired vision like this since sunlight releases valuable hormones in the eyes (or something).

What I'm trying to say is that I believe it be important to calculate your diet and not count on accidental vitamin intake from meats.

>I believe it be important to calculate your diet and not count on accidental vitamin intake from meats.

Absolutely, I only actually bothered trying to figure that out when I stopped meat myself, as I knew I wouldn't be getting everything I was meant to (even though I knew I probably wasn't healthy in the first place).

That shit is difficult to figure out, trying to cover everything recommended nutritional intake for a day feels near impossible.

Vitamin B12 =/= Vitamin D

One is dependent on dietary choices, the other is not.

There are both Vitamin D and B12 supplements, but in both cases it is better to get them from natural sources. D from the sun and B12 with some kind of food where it occurs naturally.

Salmon and tuna are definitely dietary sources of vitamin D. Fatty fish, some other seafood and other animal products contain vitamin D to varying degrees. Most people can't make enough vitamin D on their own outside late spring, summer and early autumn, nor do they have to.

That’s true, and so is red meat, eggs, milk, and so on.

But these sources of Vit D PALE in comparison to both the amount you need, and the amount you can produce just by being outdoors for a while.

You’re right, though. Salmon is a one or two orders of magnitude better than the rest.

>> B12.. So take this with a healthy dose of skepticism

Absolutely this.

Meat is so highly nutritionally dense - vegans you have no clue.

I was a vegan for 20 years of my life. I thought it was env friendly, ethical, bla-bla-bla and had my mum as a company at home while growing up in this seriously flawed cult.

And then I figured that I was not only b12 border line deficient but also in other b-vitamins. And the list continued to Iron, zinc etc. As a vegan you can still get most vitamins other than the most important b12. Even if you can get other vitamins from vegan, you will have to eat a lot to get the same nutrients as in a simple steak!

Since turning into meat, my life has gotten 10 times better probably. Although I prefer to prepare it at home only and have it just once/twice a month.

> I thought it was env friendly

It is.[0][1]

> And then I figured that I was not only b12 border line deficient

You "figured" that you were deficient? Were you supplementing B12, or eating fortified foods (e.g. most soy milk brands)?

> Even if you can get other vitamins from vegan, you will have to eat a lot to get the same nutrients as in a simple steak!

No, you just need to eat a normal amount, calorically speaking, and make sure you supplement B12 (and vitamin D if you don't get enough sun).

[0] https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets

[1] https://ourworldindata.org/food-choice-vs-eating-local

Thanks for those links. Sorry, I meant to say, I was in borderline to being deficient. Because I understand, once you are B12 deficient, you have to take those b12 injections all life. And I learnt it from a blood test and from physcian.

However, it really depends on what the family gene-stocks looks like for these vitamins and how well one can absorb those vitamins. For example, the iron in meat is mighty absorbable compared to say when you eat anything in vegan.

So I would like to urge Vegans to be highly highly skeptical.

I think instead of "skeptical" you should say "not assume you are automatically getting the nutrients they need". There is no need for "skepticism" - a well planned vegan diet is healthy at all stages of development.

I was like this when I was a vegan :)

like what? can you elaborate?

Maybe but if most vegans are not healthy then eating vegan is at best "healthy if..." which isn't any better than keto or other diets. Eating vegan is great but just like other non-normal diets it requires bloodwork from a doctor regularly.

>" Vegans showed a significantly lower mean serum iron level (p < .001) and vitamin B12 (p < .001). Wound diastasis was more frequent in vegans (p = .008). After 6 months, vegan patients had a higher modified SCAR score than omnivores (p < .001), showing the worst scar spread (p < .001), more frequent atrophic scars (p < .001), and worse overall impression (p < .001)."

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32769530/

> Maybe but if most vegans are not healthy

It's well documented that vegans, on average, live longer than omnivores (even controlling for exercise level, smoking, etc), and I don't think there's any evidence that vegans are more nutritionally deficient than omnivores - in fact, I think there's evidence for the opposite.[0] Though I agree that we preface diets with "healthy if..." I think the standard western diet is more in need of that prefix.

[0] "Mean intakes of fiber, vitamins A, C, and E, thiamin, riboflavin, folate, calcium, magnesium, and iron were higher for all vegetarians than for all nonvegetarians. Although vegetarian intakes of vitamin E, vitamin A, and magnesium exceeded that of nonvegetarians (8.3 ± 0.3 vs 7.0 ± 0.1 mg; 718 ± 28 vs 603 ± 10 μg; 322 ± 5 vs 281 ± 2 mg), both groups had intakes that were less than desired. The Healthy Eating Index score did not differ for all vegetarians compared to all nonvegetarians (50.5 ± 0.88 vs 50.1 ± 0.33, P = 0.6)." https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21616194/

> most vegans are not healthy

What is your criteria and evidence for this?

> Eating vegan is great but just like other non-normal diets it requires bloodwork from a doctor regularly

what is a "normal" diet?

I wonder if vegans can drink human milk, might not be the best diet for babies. So not all stages of development I guess.

> I wonder if vegans can drink human milk

Not sure what you mean by this. Are you asking if human milk is considered vegan?

> So not all stages of development I guess.

Almost all of the most reputable health organisations disagree[1]

1. https://vegetarianism.stackexchange.com/a/1079

I just think that making babies vegan and forbidding then of drinking their mother's milk might not be the best approach.

> "forbidding then of drinking their mother's milk"

I have no idea what you are referring to here.

That number doesn't have a comparison with non vegans so I went to the source. Open access

https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/9/9/1023/htm

Page 11.

The B12 delta is the most dramatic but some nutrients fall in the vegans favor (eg Vitamin E and Magnesium). It's kind of a mixed bag.

So the takeaway is quite boring: monitor your consumption regardless of dietary identity

As far as I can tell (non-expert), B12 supplements are basically required for healthy veganism. Humans don't have the hardware that, e.g. cows have.

Does anyone say differently?

If supplements are basically required, then perhaps when vegan diets are "marketed" on blogs, TV shows and whatnot they should show a bottle of pills alongside the fresh fruit and veg! That part seems to often get hidden away, and I wonder if it would make people stop and assess the diet a little more and decide if they're happy to supplement. And this "mismarketing" doesn't apply just to vegan diets of course, but to any diet that lacks the right balance of nutrients.

Omnivores get most of their b12 from supplements too. The difference is that the supplements are given to animals and not directly to humans.

So if you want to be more open about where all the nutritions come from, we should also disclose everything we feed to animals.

Or alternatively, we can simply start enriching some basic foods like plant based milk with b12 and d3.

The necessity of B12 supplementation isn't really hidden in vegan spaces.

That said, omnivores often lack nutrients too, including B12. It's seems veganism actually forces you to be conscious about it.

That's the part that drives me nuts. Most omnivores are deficient in fiber. And there's nobody out there saying, "You shouldn't be an omnivore." And fiber is arguably more important than B12 (where serious deficiency is mostly associated with pregnancy and autoimmune disorders).

Everybody should be eating a broad diet with a lot of nutrients, including a lot of plants. Vegans have to be more careful about it since they're not getting the broadest array of sources, but I keep seeing this weird trope of "Well, I could eat vegetables, therefore I'm protected against scurvy and constipation even though I never actually eat them."

Both vegan and omnivorous diets are healthy if you eat them well. Both are unhealthy if you practice them badly. But seeking out studies for the sole purpose of proving "veganism is bad" seems like a recipe for eating unhealthily.

> they should show a bottle of pills

In that case, advertisements for meat should also show the bottle of "supplements" that livestocks get (including B12, btw). In that sense, vegans just cut out the middlemen (or better: middleanimal).

Hardware in this case being able to host relevant bacteria / archea earlier in their digestive tract.

https://veganhealth.org/vitamin-b12/ has pretty much everything one needs to know about B12. It's worth a read in general, but especially important for vegans. Teasing the crucial part: Relying on 100% RDA of B12 from a daily multivatimin will get you in trouble because that likely exceeds the capacity of your transport proteins in a single dose. For the less efficient "unassisted" absorption, you need to dose a lot higher.

Basically all B12 supplement brands know this (it's their job) and so they have something like 2000% RDI (or whatever) to account for it.

Right, I should probably have written RDI or DV (or DRI?). Doses improved, but in Germany, I can still find multivitamins marketed specifically at vegetarians and vegans with 10ug of B12 (labeled as 400%) in the supplement aisles of supermarkets.

Even in pharmacies, I have to tell that the supplement may be my only source of B12 and that I know about the dosing. I reduce the frequency when I have other sources like toothpaste. I think it is worth to RTFM for something that is relevant for the rest of my life.

As I said in another comment, shiitake mushrooms are an excellent source of B12.

Moreover it's the same form of B12 as found in beef, liver, fish, etc, so you have no worries of bioavailability.

You are right. A lot of plant based sources are not going to provide enough B12.

I am not a vegan nor vegetarian, though in the summer I mostly love plant based.

From personal interest some time ago I was looking for plant based alternative sources and stumbled (next to others) onto [1].

[1]: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10794633/

There's B12 in nutritional yeast. One serving of Bragg's is something like 600% DV of B12

I hadn't heard that before so I looked on Wikipedia [1] where it states the B12 in nutritional yeast is actually added by the manufacturer.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nutritional_yeast

So pretty much like how B12 supplements are given to livestock; kind of neat really. Fortified foods are such a cool concept in my opinion

Heck, there's B12 in beer. Not a whole lot (you'd need a case to get an entire day's supply), but just one beer can be part of a diet that gets you all the nutrients.

Interesting bit about the possibility of B12 probiotics, I am not a medical Doctor, but the article is fairly tentative.

https://www.b12-vitamin.com/gut-bacteria/

Reply on news.ycombinator.com