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"mix of envy and a hatred of success"

No. It is distrust of such a erratic self loving obsessive fool.

Yes he is very smart, and is capable of assembling teams of fantastic engineers. But he cannot shut up. If it is tweeting jokes about taking Tesla private, slandering peopel who are doing the dangerous work and do not want his foolish interference (pedo guy), advocating (Dog help us!) Bitcoin. The lawsuits against whistle blowers. And here: his tolerance of fatal failures in his technology in favour of marketing and cash flow.

"aggressive disregard for the norms of society": If it were thought through and considered it would not be such a problem. If he were less intelligent, less driven, it would be less of a problem.

He is a fool. But a fool with a big stick. And that is a very dangerous thing

You’re exaggerating the impact or importance of a few minor negative incidents against world changing achievements. He’s far from a fool and saying these incidents make him a “very dangerous thing” just seems silly.

You don't need a media conspiracy to tarnish Elon Musk's reputation, because Musk is the same man who used his platform to reach millions of people and call a literal hero who helped save children's lives a pedophile several times[1].

[1] https://www.the-sun.com/news/126445/who-is-vernon-unsworth-t...

Yea those insults did seem unfounded and unnecessary. But considering his genius, economic success, and positive impact on the world, it just doesn’t seem anywhere near enough to color his overall reputation negatively. Everyone has incidents like this in their life where they got mad at someone, said things they shouldn’t have, etc. To pretend otherwise would not just be everyday hubris, but a bold faced lie. So is it that every human is irredeemable and has a tarnished reputation or can we consider the whole of people like Musk and acknowledge that yes, they are extraordinary?

pedophilia is a very serious accusation to make. everyone makes mistakes, but most of us don't make mistakes like that. musk has done some really great things, but it's gonna take a bit more to make me forget that he attempted to ruin a heroic man's life because he saved the children before musk had a chance to deploy his inflatable tube.

My take is that he's extremely good at some things, but overall just a mean, vindictive person.

I think we can acknowledge that people are complex animals and that someone can be amazing at some things and terrible at others.

I think Elon regularly fails to meet my expectations of how we should treat other people. He regularly exceeds my expectations as the CEO of a launch services company.

I was down voted for this, and I think fairly.

I said Elon was "just a mean, vindictive person", but I think that's far broader than I should have said. I think that sentence would more fairly read "capable of being a mean, vindictive person".

> Everyone has incidents like this in their life where they got mad at someone, said things they shouldn’t have, etc.

It wasn't an isolated incident. Musk called the man a pedophile several times over the course of weeks and months. Millions of people's only exposure to the person who helped save kids' lives was seeing Musk call them a pedophile, over and over again, reinforcing the accusation.

Also, I have never smeared someone like that, and would never consider doing so at all, let alone just because they hurt my ego.

You must be talking about Vern Unsworth? He's NOT a diver and did not rescue anybody. He was a "cave expert".

He was enjoying the limelight and was pretty hostile to anyone/anything that was taking the attention away from him. He also wanted to make money from it.

Most shockingly. He said "I will make the divers sugger [sic] for leaving us out of the loop "

Source (Exhibit 7, Page 49): https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.cacd.723137...

When he heard that Elon was offering SpaceX engineering resources to the cause. He said on a video interview to take the submarine and shove it where the "sun doesn't shine" while maniacally laughing.

These are all facts that came to light from his lawsuit. Which by the way he lost:

https://www.wired.com/story/elon-musk-wins-defamation-suit-b...

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/dec/06/elon-musk...

https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/7887513/vernon-unsworth...

https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/califor...

> You must be talking about Vern Unsworth? He's NOT a diver and did not rescue anybody. He was a "cave expert".

You must be responding to a strawman argument that I never made. Please show me where I claimed anything other than "he helped save children's lives".

> He was enjoying the limelight and was pretty hostile to anyone/anything that was taking the attention away from him. He also wanted to make money from the fame.

Considering that this is exactly what Musk did, I find it pretty ironic that his fans have no problem projecting that upon people that Musk smears.

> He said on a video interview to take the submarine and shove it where the "sun doesn't shine" while maniacally laughing.

Musk forced himself into a high stakes situation where literal children's lives were at risk. Instead of listening to the experts and officials executing the rescue effort, Musk turned the tragedy into a PR event and injected himself and his companies into a situation that he both wasn't wanted in and was asked not to participate in.

When celebrities get involved with disaster scenarios, especially when they are not experts in themselves, they interfere with rescue efforts because officials often trust celebrity advice and interference over that of experts[1].

Had officials delegated to Musk's celebrity and his impractical "submarine", the children would have died. Why? Because the submarine was physically unable to navigate the sharp turns[2] that were required to reach the children and get them out.

Unsworth, an expert and participant in the effort, used much kinder words than I would have had Musk tried to make a disaster that affected me into a PR spectacle.

[1] https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-44779998

[2] https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/10C6A/production...

> Considering that this is exactly what Musk did, I find it pretty ironic that his fans have no problem projecting that upon people that Musk smears.

A bit ad hominem isn't it? How do you know I am a fan? Everything I said are facts from court documents. Unsworth was even hostile to actual rescuers/divers... Are they fans of Musk too?

How do you address this statement by Unsworth: "I will make the divers sugger [sic] for leaving us out of the loop"

I think it speaks volumes about what kind of person he is and his moral values. Trying to capitalize on a "high stakes situation" per your own words. He is not exactly the saint/hero you're claiming. Based on court documents. Not my own opinion.

Care to address any of my post? Because I don't intend to participate in furthering Musk's infantile smear campaign even if you want to.

edit: It would be nice if you indicated that you edited your above post after I had replied to it. Thanks.

edit: edit: Given that you edited your post, I will have to reply via edit.

> A bit ad hominem isn't it? How do you know I am a fan

You're aware that HN posts aren't deleted, right? I know because of your own posts[1]. Of 338 total comments, 140 of them are defending Tesla, which is what 41.42% of your total posts are about.

For someone who claims they aren't a fan, you sure have a strange fixation with defending the company, even making it a significant chunk of your HN career.

I implore anyone who thinks that's an "ad hominem" to point this out to click on this link[1].

[1] https://hn.algolia.com/?query=xedeon%20tesla&dateRange=all&p...

I provided you with a collection of facts from the court case and ruling. Make of it what you will. But painting Unsworth as a saint that did nothing wrong and calling it a smear campaign is baseless.

You are essentially discounting the judge/jury decision on this matter. If the facts were on Unsworth side. It would have been an ironclad case. I am operating from a factual standpoint. You seem to be on the emotional side because you keep going on this tirade.

> For someone who claims they aren't a fan, you sure have a strange fixation with defending the company, even making it a significant chunk of your HN career.

I love how you keep steering the conversation away from facts and directing it towards me. How exactly are you providing value on this discussion? Also, hang on... There are people who actually consider HN as a "career"? How do I get compensated?

I don't matter. Facts do. If you can correct me where I said something that is not factual on this thread. Please feel free to do so.

> You're aware that HN posts aren't deleted, right?

Of course! This is the internet after all. You're digging through my profile to make a point? Now that's what you call infantile. Why don't you address what I wrote with your counterarguments? You yourself seem to be on an emotional Tesla tirade [1]. Don't act all holier than thou.

[1] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...

> I implore anyone who thinks that's an "ad hominem" to point this out to click on this link[1].

You just proved my point! What your doing is a sad attempt to rally the mob towards me. If people disagree, they can just downvote my comments. But I do try to be factual as best that I can.

If you pay attention it's been created by a carefully constructed narrative by certain media outlets. The switch to anti-tech and anti-billionaire biases was surprisingly swift, and few seemed to even notice. Add to that the complete removal of nuance from news reports, and any platforms (eg, Clubhouse / Podcasts) that attempt to add in nuance are either ignored/treated as fringe, or out-right demonized.

Didn't Musk grow up in a wealthy family? If so, his success isn't much proof that capitalism works meritocratically, although it's still evidence that capitalism works. Not that I need to be convinced of that, I'm pretty sure already that capitalism works better than the known alternatives.

Yeah I definitely agree, some of the hate for Musk comes from hate of capitalism and of the wealthy. I think that some of it also probably comes from his flirting with 4chan-esque trolling, like his talking about the red pill, etc. I think it's funny and refreshing but some cultural leftists get triggered by it.

I think you can tell I'm not exactly an Elon Musk hater, but that said... let's get real, the guy is a con artist. He has accomplished a lot of genuine things but he is also a con artist.

>I think the emphasis on his character flaws - which we all have - is disproportionate and frankly totally irrelevant considering the scale of his achievements.

He sells driving assistance technology as "Full Self-Driving". I give him full credit for his genuine achievements but I'm not going to ignore that he is also a con artist.

> Didn't Musk grow up in a wealthy family?

No. That's a false narrative. He arrived in North America with $2,000 worth of savings a backpack and a suitcase full of books. He also paid his way through college.

According to Ashlee Vance's book: "Elon Musk: Tesla, SpaceX, and the Quest for a Fantastic Future"

His father was a pretty wealthy engineer and they certainty were among the richer people in South Africa.

However, his father didn't like him wanting to go to the US so he didn't pay for it. Musk had to work threw university.

Later his father invested some money into Zip2.

> He sells driving assistance technology as "Full Self-Driving". I give him full credit for his genuine achievements but I'm not going to ignore that he is also a con artist.

If you actually buy the car you see an exact description of what the feature does currently, what they think it will do in a couple of months and that you will get updates in order to get full self driving.

The money is not counted as revenue for the company because they have not delivered the features.

See from the website:

Full Self-Driving Capability

$10,000

    Navigate on Autopilot
    Auto Lane Change
    Autopark
    Summon
    Full Self-Driving Computer
    Traffic Light and Stop Sign Control

Coming later this year

    Autosteer on city streets

The currently enabled features require active driver supervision and do not make the vehicle autonomous. The activation and use of these features are dependent on achieving reliability far in excess of human drivers as demonstrated by billions of miles of experience, as well as regulatory approval, which may take longer in some jurisdictions. As these self-driving features evolve, your car will be continuously upgraded through over-the-air software updates.

Because he’s a twat. Unrepentantly and quite ostensibly so. There you go, nothing mysterious about it.

Everyone has some character flaws, some gaffes, some negative anecdotes. Focusing on those and calling him a “twat” is just a ridiculous characterization when you consider what’s he’s achieved and how positive those achievements are for the world. So yes it remains mysterious why there are so many people ready to show their hate for him. And the only feasible explanations are envy or political/ideological motivation.

Which positive achievements are we talking about exactly?

Just to name a few:

Zip2 Corporation

SpaceX

Tesla Motors

SolarCity

The Boring Company

Hyperloop

Open AI

Neuralink

What exactly has Hyperloop "achieved"? It offers the same benefit as Maglev with massively inflated costs and far less comfortable passenger experience.

I didn't ask which companies he has/had a stake in, I'm asking what the supposed positive achievements for humanity are? Don't bother, there really aren't any.

Musk is not your real-life Tony Stark, he's a real life Hugo Drax.

> I'm asking what the supposed positive achievements for humanity are? Don't bother, there really aren't any.

Why such contempt? To infer that Starlink, Tesla and SpaceX are not positive achievements for humanity is a bit cretinous.

More importantly. What positive achievements have you done? The likely answer is that Musk or any founder which company is publicly traded (not including social media ones for obv reasons) are a net positive for the world compared to you.

I find it fascinating how people watching from the sidelines love to dunk on entrepreneurs. They also seem to be always angry at the world.

The quote "Comparison is the thief of joy" by FDR has never ringed more true.

Everyone has character flaws. Not everyone has musk level character flaws. People who think he’s a dick (people like me) are louder about it that about other things in reaction to people who want to overlook those flaws and worship the guy as Mars Jesus.

If you think the only motivations are envy/political/ideological, you are just underestimating the number of people who don’t think like you.

His companies do not change his character, though. For example, one can acknowledge the usefulness of Amazon and still think Bezos is a creep. Musk is a born-rich libertarian with an insecure, massive ego and too clever for his own good. His stupid behaviour on Twitter and in person is well documented. The fact that he established a cult of personality does not change this, either.