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Comment by urthor | Hacker News Reader

On one point the article has made.

Canadians are really really unhappy with their milk system, they have some of the highest priced milk in the entire world and they despise it.

"probably through a supply management program similar to what Canada has" is a nonstarter for cityfolk. It would mean $4 milk.

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To my knowledge there are still functional family dairy farms here in Ontario. And the cost of milk, about $4.80 (Canadian) for 4L, and butter (hovering between $3 and $6 per pound - we buy it on special, it stores well in the freezer) is really not an issue even for our family of four. So far so good. I'm glad to pay it if it keeps family farms in business. I grew up on a dairy farm in Germany (in the pre-quota days).

The issue is the quota system. A quick google says it's hovering around $25K Canadian for the right to ship one kilogram of butterfat (whole milk is about 3.5% fat) per day. This means the quota tends to be a farmer's single most valuable possession, and it protects idyllic family farms (good) but makes it prohibitively expensive to get into the business.

All in all, you can drive around in Ontario's farm belts and they still look pretty traditionally prosperous. We must be doing something right.

>All in all, you can drive around in Ontario's farm belts and they still look pretty traditionally prosperous. We must be doing something right.

By having laws that force consumers to subsidize the businesses of special interests?

That is a common purpose of laws. Most laws in a "modern" society are probably some form of that. As special interests go, dairy farmers seem more ethically defensible than armaments manufacturers. I wish my nation were more like Canada.

It's actually not true that family dairy farms in Ontario are doing well. If you look at actual data (search for "D056 Number of farms with shipments of milk by province"), you'll see that the number of independent farms in Ontario has declined by 29% since 2006. You see the same long term trend in every province.

At one time long ago, the quota system was billed as protecting the family farm, but in practice now it drives the death of family farms, as people with quotas slowly sell out to large producers and new farmers cannot enter the marketplace because of the quota cost wall. Ontario currently is tied with Quebec for the cheapest quotas in the country, but getting started in the industry is still impossible without huge investments beyond the reach of young farmers (e.g., the upfront cost just to buy just the quotas, not the land or the cows, for a small 100 cow venture in Ontario is currently $2.4 million -- compare this with someone else in this thread who managed to get a whole farm up and running in the US, including land and his herd, for around $500k USD).

From my perspective (being Canadian, and having enough money to purchase milk) the price is fine with me. No one in my family drinks milk. My kids have it with cereal, and I use it for cooking. A price of $5 CDN for 4L of regular milk, and $9 CDN for 4L of organic milk is just high enough to ensure that it is drunk in moderation. Using Walmart, I chose Plano, TX and the price of 1 gallon of Walmart brand milk costs $2.41 USD which converts to $3.05 CDN so Canadians pay a $2 premium. I purchase 4L every 2 weeks, so I pay $48 more per year to have a milk system that benefits the farmers, and their neighbours. I'm OK with that. Plus that extra $2 ensures that Canadian milk doesn't contain growth hormones which are permitted in the USA.[1]

[1] https://bcdairy.ca/milk/articles/does-milk-contain-growth-ho...

It amounts to about a $150 dollar a year tax (more with the more children you have). Only, the tax goes to 13,000 producers, so it's a regressive tax that penalizes the poor.

https://www.policyschool.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/suppl...

We have rather cheap milk here in Germany, because it's heavily subsidized.

But right now plant based alternatives are on the rise. I didn't buy milk for years now.

Canadian here, very happy with the milk quota system. Despite all the media hoopla, I don't actually know anyone who cares about it. And I live in a city.

Also a Canadian. Likely most people don't care about it because they don't really know about it, and the additional price that goes to subsidizing farmers is also not material for many people. Also, many who live near the border make a bi-monthly trek into the US (pre-covid) to buy milk, eggs, and gasoline.

re: >> "I don't actually know anyone who cares about it" see: https://imgur.com/gallery/BTOog

I remember the first time I saw cheese prices in the US and almost cried. A 1 kg block of good cheese was like $20-30, not $60-90.

Decent cheddar is £7 / kg in the UK & that’s ignoring the cheap stuff.

Once you're above the grade of "cheese" that I'd suppose Europeans wouldn't recognize as such at all, even our low-end actual cheese in the US is incredibly expensive compared to (Western, at least, IDK about the rest) Europe. Not sure why.

Costco is our salvation here in Ontario. Cheese prices are high, yes, but about 1/2 at Costco compared to anywhere else. They have good selection and quality. Reference is a 500g block of Jarlsberg at currently $9.50 Canadian. Expensive, but still affordable.

Officially, US cheddar seems to be trending about $12/kg ($5.50/lb). I actually pay a lot less, ~$12.50 for a 4lb block (Walmart).

ref: https://www.statista.com/statistics/236863/retail-price-of-c...

In Singapore, a liter (not gallon) of fresh milk starts from about $3. Then again, neither the Chinese nor Malay populace historically drinks the stuff.

I lived in Singapore for two years, and over that whole time was never able to choke down more than a swallow or two of the... liquid that was sold as "milk" there. The cheese selection, however, was much better than that available in USA.

I don’t buy dairy at all because of how expensive it is here. A cheap block of store brand cheddar cheese costs $5. A 2L carton of milk is around $3, or I can get a 4L jug for $5. A small container of sour cream is $3. A single 100g Greek yoghurt cup is $1. Huge waste of money.

Big dairy in Canada is really powerful to the point where it’s impossible to get elected as Conservative party leader without supporting the dairy cartel.

That's equal to or less than what I pay in the US. Seems to me the Canadian system doesn't drive up costs that much.

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