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Comment by ineedasername | Hacker News Reader

Apple's card wouldn't seem so bad to me if they didn't treat debt to Apple differently [0] & lock people out of all of their Apple services when there's a payment overdue. It's crappy enough to be behind on bills without that sort of pile-on, not to mention the Kafka-esque process of fixing the issue.

[0] https://dcurt.is/apple-card-can-disable-your-icloud-account

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> It appears as though charges from Apple are special, and if your account is not 100% current, Apple will quickly take drastic action.

It's not just charges made on your Apple card. Here's a comment thread[1] from two years ago when I mentioned Apple did the same thing to me over a recurring charge for iCloud that failed because I got a new debit card and didn't update it in time. (I was traveling.)

Unlike the author of the post you linked I was given zero notice or warning that all-things-Apple would stop functioning. I had assumed the charge would just fail the same way any other charge to a "bad" card wouldn't go through and that my iCloud subscription might lapse. I never in a million years imagined the charge would create an $8 debt to Apple payable immediately and that my iPhone (which I owned outright, not financed through Apple or anyone else) would be bricked unless and until I paid up. I was unable to download anything from the app store at all until I entered new payment information. I couldn't even download free updates to free third-party apps.

Over $8.

[1]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18917685

> and that my iPhone (which I owned outright, not financed through Apple or anyone else) would be bricked unless and until I paid up

Last time you described this situation as "the app store was basically bricked on my phone". That's quite a difference.

Most apps require constant updates or they stop working.

I had set up my iphone to only update on wifi, and was travelling for a month or so only using mobile network.

When I tried to get an uber, I realized the app didn't work correctly (the driver appeared to be in the middle of the ocean). Same for other apps.

Games and apps that don't use heavy server code work fine, but google maps, uber, whatsapp, facebook, and some of the KEY things will break eventually if you never update them.

Google maps probably won't break, but other things might.

https://beebom.com/google-maps-backwards-compatible/

Once my bank forced me to update. When I went to make a “scheduled payment” (as I like to do after opening my bills...), it now said “coming soon”.

I was not impressed.

I've had my debit card replaced and forgot to update Apple's payment details

The phone might as well be bricked, updates fail and constantly pop up the payment screen, can't install new apps.

It's like having a virus on your phone.

It was quite a while ago but IIRC it was around the time of a major iOS update (which I had done) and so in the days that followed many of the apps “required” an update which I couldn’t complete. I wish I could remember which app needed updating that finally pushed me to add my credit card as a payment method. But here I am two+ years later and that AmEx is still the card associated with my AppleID rather than my debit card.

Just out of curiosity, do you still rely on an Apple phone?

This doesn't sound like it's Apple Card but rather the Apple Store doing the disabling.

He said his Bank Account info had changed and the Auto-Pay to Apple Card failed. He mentions a card decline but that he had available balance, he never mentions that is Apple Card is disabled however and is vague about the specifics surrounding the card.

He bought a Macbook, didn't or wasn't able to fulfill the trade-in, and thus the Apple Store determined he owed the amount they credited for the Trade-In. So when the Apple Store tried to debit his Apple Card for the trade-in amount it failed. The Apple Store then disabled the device purchased and the accounts associated with the purchase.

I have a feeling if you tried to do this with a Pre-Paid Visa or a Debit Account, Apple would still disable the device and accounts.

* Yeah it's just what I said. Apple/Store froze his accounts, not Apple Card.

https://www.macrumors.com/2021/03/03/apple-missed-apple-card...

This will happen to anyone's accounts if they don't fulfill a transaction with Apple Store. It has nothing to do with Apple Pay.

** I also find it strange that he missed an email from Apple telling him he was delinquent on his purchase AND didn't see any emails about an Auto-Pay failure all while waiting for an email from Apple Support about his account being disabled.

Maybe it would still happen with some other card, though probably only if the purchase was directly linked to your account, e.g., buying from Apple's website or retail store. If you used a standard visa card at Best Buy, you'd be fine. Strong reason not to buy direct, if you're going to buy at all.

While that is definitely concerning, they did clarify that missing card payments will not result in a Apple lockout.

In this case, the person received a trade-in credit for a phone, did not send the phone in, and then when Apple tried to collect the trade-in credit, that payment bounced.

https://9to5mac.com/2021/03/03/apple-card-apple-id-unrelated...

It's still more than worrying enough that I will not use Apple Pay because the consequences of something going wrong and having my Apple Dev account locked are _way_ too high.

What if that phone had got lost/stolen in transit, instead of not being sent at all?

I don’t understand how this is associated with Apple Pay: you don’t need Apple’s branded credit card to use Apple Pay. I have an Amex card that I use for everything except buying Apple products.

I know the original article is going to get shared way more than the follow-up from Apple that actually explains the events:

https://9to5mac.com/2021/03/03/apple-card-apple-id-unrelated...

> lock people out of all of their Apple services when there's a payment overdue

They did not do this.

He forgot to send them his trade-in and that triggered it. Nothing to do with the card.

It’s kinda outrageous he hasn’t updated the article to indicate this.

I am trying hard these days not to resort to "judging heuristics" and jump into conclusions about people, but when I see someone calling themselves "Designer, hacker, investor, nomad.", it's like immediately know their type: the "fake it till you make it" entrepreneur wannebes. He also links to his GitHub everywhere, but he made literally no contribution whatsoever in the last 2 years except some README fixes.

"Cool people don't say they're cool".

No, lack of trade in wasn't the direct issue. They didn't lock everything due to failure to receive the trade, they locked it because of the debt that incurred. Read through some other comments-- someone else had the same thing happen for an $8 charge when it was rejected by the credit card company after posting to a cancelled card.

No, that person indicates they were only unable to download from the App Store until they fixed their payment method for the App Store. Which... makes sense?

The rest of their Apple ID, as far as I can tell, was unaffected. It's another example of big claims turning out to be far more mundane. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26430248

Why does it make sense you can't download FREE apps from the app store without a valid credit card? I get not being able to make purchases from the app store. But the app store is needed to get updates to banking apps, communication apps, etc... The price of that service is figured into the price of the device (you never have to purchase anything on the app store ever to use the app store)

If I owe the App Store money, it is not surprising to me that it refuses to work until I fulfill that debt.

They didn't owe the app store money.

Heck, they didn't even owe Apple money. They owed money to the bank backing the card: Goldman Sachs.

No, you're mixing up two cases.

Dustin Curtis claimed his Apple Card was the issue, but it wasn't. His not turning in his trade-in was the issue; that's owed to Apple directly.

They were locked out of more than the app store, including anything they stored on the iCloud account which is a separate service all together. It sounds identical to what happened in the story I linked to, although that one the person couldn't even sync their calendar. Maybe the $8 person didn't use that function & so didn't mention it. Or maybe it still worked, but it would be strange for all other things locked out to be the same but for that one thing.

Regardless, it doesn't make sense to me: Visa (Chase Bank) can't lock me out of a damn thing on on the phone I bought on Amazon. They can't even take the phone away: Most credit cards are unsecured debt, the phone isn't collateral that can be repo'ed. Store-branded cards, though also backed by a bank, are sometimes different and purchases are also security for the debt: one of the reasons I stay away from them. I live debt-free, have been fortunate to always be able to do so apart from a small mortgage, but don't really like the idea that a really bad run of luck could be compounded by having some of the things I need taken away from me as I try to dig myself out of a hole.

I had a similarish threat from steam once. I wanted to chargeback a game and they said it would cost me access to my _entire library_ . Better to eat a $30 charge than to lose access to $1000s for games.

Can they legally even revoke your licenses to those games? Maybe they remove steam access but you’d still have the right to torrent those games?

Their TSA says the content licenses are tied to Steam. If you're banned from Steam, you lose the legal right to those games:

This license ends upon termination of (a) this Agreement or (b) a Subscription that includes the license. The Content and Services are licensed, not sold. Your license confers no title or ownership in the Content and Services. To make use of the Content and Services, you must have a Steam Account and you may be required to be running the Steam client and maintaining a connection to the Internet.

Suddenly steam games don't seem so cheap. They're hamstrung games compared to, say, back when you'd buy a nintendo cartridge and they'd basically have no control what you did with it then on (such as resell it on ebay or continue to play it whilst simultaneously disparaging them in public).

There really ought to be regulation around this. I fear it with Amazon and my Kindle library.

It's a bit of effort, but you can use Calibre (+ dedrm plugin) to backup your kindle content.

https://github.com/kovidgoyal/calibre

I had the same thing from an accidental purchase-- I purchased the PS4 version of a game instead of the PS3 version, and didn't actually have a PS4. After multiple exchanges and ultimately arguing my case with someone over the phone, they reverse the charge as a "one time courtesy"

The mere fact that you can "buy" a game on the Sony store that is available for multiple devices but not be able to play it on all of those devices is already ridiculous.

I've received three one time courtesy refunds. One game wouldn't start, and twice I've accidentally bought DLC rather than the game the DLC is for.

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