Not interacting with it doesn't mean you don't use it - I glance at it to see if there is more content and where in it I am, even though I use the scroll wheel to move.
This is especially useful if you made your modern front page super fancy so that the above-the-fold space looks like a tidy complete package. Or if you have a sub-panel containing a list of something.
I make web sites for students. I've frequently found that, if it's necessary to have a scrollable list of something, I need to dynamically change the height of stuff so that the list starts with some list item partially peeking out over the fold, otherwise half the users with hidden scrollbars won't know to scroll and find more stuff.
I suppose this has made "above the fold" more valuable, or perhaps mobile devices show so little content that everyone has to scroll ...
I just realized that the "mobile-first" web has made using a computer with large screens a super-power. I have 17m pixels (and many more if I wasn't using Retina-like resolutions to get crisper text) - others I work with are stuck at barely over a million pixels.
Hiding relevant information from the user is a bad idea. The computer is a tool that the user employs to accomplish a task. Do not hide tools from people who need to use the tools.
A computer is a tool. It's not a design statement. It is not a canvas on which you paint. It is a toolbox full of tools a user needs to do work. Treat it as such, please.
The funny thing is, if scroll bars never existed and someone tried to add them they would be considered terrible UI.
You need to hit a tiny target with your mouse, that gets smaller and smaller in proportion to the size of the document. Missing the scroll bar, and hitting the gutter moves you to a random page with no simple way to get back.
On small documents a small mouse movement scrolls by a small amount, but on a large document a small mouse movement can scroll way too fast.
On some systems clicking the gutter is "page down". On others it is "move to this relative point in the document".
With a mouse wheel or track pad the scroll speed is consistent no matter the size of the document, and the user can scroll faster or slower very easily. And you have a huge target - the entire document. There is no chance of paging when you mean to scroll. Scrollbars are obsolete.
On Windows, and in every Linux GUI framework I can think of, clicking anywhere above or below the scroll thumb scrolls exactly one screen page up or down, for the very reason you've described. To navigate to an arbitrary spot, you're supposed to drag the thumb.
I love my scrollbars, and I want them always visible. I don't use the mouse often, and I certainly don't want to have to use the mouse just to see context.
Chrome implemented even worse nasties on GNU/Linux with scrollbars though, including forcing a snapback to original position if you drag the scrollbar but happen to move the mouse a few pixels too far left or right of the scrollbar [1]. Apparently that's how Microsoft Windows users do things. So now we have to as well.
[1] https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=377191
The secondary job of the scrollbar is to tell you where you are in relation to the content, and how much of it there is, relative to what you see on your screen. Both of these roles are best fulfilled when the indicator is persistently visible.
You could make scrollbars transparent to clicks and they'd do 90% of their job already. The ability to click on them to quickly jump to a desired location is a useful bonus, even if not frequently used these days. What matters is that they're visible.
Do you have evidence for this, even if it's anecdotal? To be honest a statement like that sounds like a hypothesis and a reasonable hypothesis, but I am not joking when I say when we did user testing, it was absolutely never the case that someone actually didn't scroll because they didn't see a scroll bar. Now we didn't test specifically for that but I'd be surprised if a controlled experiment testing that hypothesis concluded that people will actually just never bother to scroll unless they explicitly see a scrollbar.
Scrolling is actually a very natural thing that people do without the need to visibly see a scrollbar. Using a dedicated scroll button or gesture is a very cheap and consequence free action to perform. I'd be very surprised if you have data that contradicts this and indicates that an actual human being would simply not scroll because the only visual cue/indicator that people use is a scrollbar, rather than the multitude of context specific information available to indicate whether more content is available.
- Almost every discussion on Apple and scrollbars I see on-line has someone telling a story of how they didn't realize some app was scrollable, because its visual grid happened to align perfectly with viewport size of their iPhone/iPad;
- I got caught myself by this a few times on PC, where the design of the page looked complete, scollbars were hidden, and I didn't realize I could scroll down;
- I've been the person to tell some confused non-technical people that they could scroll down to see more, because the layout of a webpage did not make this obvious, and without a scrollbar visible, they were just puzzled why there's so little information on the screen.
Plural of anecdote is not data, so I'm open to the possibility I may have just had peculiar luck, but I think it's fair to assign a low prior to that.
> that an actual human being would simply not scroll because the only visual cue/indicator that people use is a scrollbar, rather than the multitude of context specific information available to indicate whether more content is available
What these cases had in common was that there was insufficient context-specific information available to make it apparent the content is scrollable (and - anecdotally, again - in my experience, non-tech-savvy people don't have the nervous tick of just randomly scrolling on the wheel, to check if it does something). Sometimes, the only such contextual information was the feeling you got after reading everything on the page, that something is missing. But if your users have to reach that point to figure out they can try scrolling, the UI failed at its job, and wasted them a minute of their lives.
It is faster than scrolling with the wheel
But when a site tries infinite scroll, it is often broken
Or use the scrollbar to jump to the top, you are forcing me to do extra things
Yes I am a vocal opponent of hidden UI elements. Shame on me, I guess.
If I were the innocent target of a firing squad, I would be a vocal opponent of the actions being taken against me there, too. "It's just a vocal minority. Fire."
Being a vocal minority doesn't make me wrong. But it probably means I have thought about the problem space more than those who are not. At that point you put the A/B testing aside and you talk to the people and listen to them, and see if they are informed or if they are crackpots.
If you aren't scrolling, then the scrollbar provides little information in proportion to the amount of space it consumes. If you are scrolling, then the scrollbar is very important and it gets displayed. If you want to know where in a document you are, our experience is that users tend to already have a good idea of where in a document they are based on multiple cues including the fact that they are likely the ones who positioned themselves to that point in the document already. In the very rare moments where they need that cue, they can move their mouse (scrollbar appears when the mouse moves).
As screens are a finite resource, by minimizing information that isn't necessary towards accomplishing a goal, we can maximize the information that is.
I would genuinely love to see a UI where valuable information is unavailable without scrolling because of the presence of a scroll bar. I am not being sarcastic or snarky. I would love to see that UI
[1] is an image comparing a list of trades with and without the scrollbar. The scrollbar literally hides an entire column's worth of data.
[2] is an image of a typical trader's layout so you can get a sense of the context and how the size of a scrollbar can add up.
As you can see, given that the scrollbar consumes around 20% of the width of a trade list, by eliminating it a user can can add one additional trade window for every 5 that are open. That's literally money in their pocket and our pocket.
Some additional info is that the Windows 10 titlebar is too tall and those minimize/maximize buttons are enormous, so we redesigned a new title bar that is not only slimmer, but allows us to make better use of it while still retaining the functionality. I am not going to declare that we are the masters of UX and everything we decide is absolutely correct, but we do really care about these issues because they make a measurable impact on our performance.
That said, almost all of those windows in the "typical usage" image have space enough to display everything fully AND show a scrollbar. And I would imagine a trader would shrink those windows enough to allow another window or two in the row, and be very happy without a scrollbar.
On another topic, I have an AutoHotKey script that, with some modification, may be of extreme use to those people. Felt appropriate to inform you of it.
https://gist.github.com/naikrovek/b13a77d169de0e192bcf48fec0...
If you don't know AHK then it's difficult to pull apart what it's doing. AHK syntax is weird, toe anyway.
People's preferences about usability can change over the course of familiarizing themselves with your software, things that are friendly when they first use the software may end up being useless as they become more familiar with it. We obviously don't want to make our software hostile to new users, but for our purpose we want to ensure that people who are more familiar with our software have the optimal experience.
The scrollbar doesn't just let you know that you can scroll, it shows you the size of the content in relation to the size of your viewing window, and it shows you the location of the viewing window within the overall content, and it does this at a glance. A scrollbar is an extremely efficient use of screen space.
Don't hide things from the user that provide the user with information.
The reason we hide the scrollbars is because scrollbars are not the one and only consideration that we make when designing a page, information density also matters and so we have to weigh these options together and conduct user testing to see what the impact of various design decisions are. Certainly there is a vocal minority of people who are dead set that scrollbars must always be visible, and we can respect their choice, but we also have to optimize our software for the majority of our users who would rather see more content.
The balance we went with was if you want to see the scrollbar, you need to perform an action that engages it, which is moving your mouse over the scrollable area, or performing a scroll operation. We have other things too that we have to consider, like until the mouse approaches the scrollbar it appears very thin and when the mouse is within a certain distance it expands to allow it to moved.
Will every single user like this approach? No of course not. But based on our user testing, it optimized for metrics that we care about.
The problem with revealing scrollbars it that they then obscure whatever was shown there before. (Or reflow the page, dear god). If you use that space, well you can't see it when you're scrolling; and if you don't use that space why not show the scrollbar the whole time?
We already hide 99.9999% of things that provide the user with information. Thank god, because the real maxim should be don't overload the user with information.
We try to show only the things that show the most useful information at the times it's needed, and hide them the rest of the time.
Scroll bars used to be necessary primarily for scrolling. Once people switched to scroll wheels and trackpad gliding this the primary use case disappeared.
Knowing where in the document you are isn't usually that useful. You started at the top and already know how much you've read. For the infrequent moments where you really do need to know, just jiggle the scroll and you can see it instantly.
It's a very elegant solution. It really does work.
> We try to show only the things that show the most useful information at the times it's needed, and hide them the rest of the time.
Surely there's a middle ground between showing a user everything and showing a user practically nothing and then trying to guess what they might need.
Software that tries to figure out what I want instead of just letting me just pick what I want is, frankly, annoying. How does software handle a situation where an option I might want is hidden because I have a use case that the developers didn't anticipate?
> Knowing where in the document you are isn't usually that useful.
Disagree. If I'm reading a document on the Internet, I probably don't know how long it is before I start reading it (and those ridiculous tags that say an article is XX minutes long are almost always so wrong that they're useless for me). If I'm scrolling with my scroll wheel, I'm probably not paying attention to the scroll bar. If I've been reading said document for fifteen minutes and I want to know approximately how far into the document I've read (and if I have any hope of finishing it up in the time before I have to do something else) the position of the box in the scroll bar is a great way for me estimate that at a glance. Jiggling the page or moving the mouse all the way to the side or doing some other incantation to make it appear completely breaks my flow reading the document and can make me easily lose my place (especially if I'm in the middle of a paragraph). A quick glance at the scroll bar also breaks the flow, but not quite as badly, and it's a lot easier to resume where I left off.
Yes, that's what software already does. And a scroll bar that appears but only when you jiggle the scroll is that middle ground.
> Software that tries to figure out what I want instead of just letting me just pick what I want is, frankly, annoying.
That's literally all software though.
Otherwise every screen would be covered in every possible option, and would be unusable.
But in conjunction, they absolutely do. You can't look at anything in isolation.
Which is why, in UX, you have to be rigorous in removing everything that isn't absolutely necessary.
It's physically tiring to scroll through a long document with multiple finger drags on the surface of the mouse. And knowing how much there is left to look at is clearly useful.
Worse, the default MacOS micro-scroll bars are too narrow even when they're visible. I assume this is to encourage track pad and finger-drag use - but that's not a user-centric decision.
Mice with scroll wheels existed then, and were common, at least in Alaska, where I was at the time.
It's only in the last few years of computers with mouse-driven GUIs that suddenly the scrollbar is intolerable for UX people. Suddenly users are saying that a scrollbar is unacceptable? Really? Or are the survey questions worded to produce the results desired by the designer? The latter seems much more likely. (It's hard NOT to bias survey questions, if you don't know how easy it is to bias them accidentally.)
I can't believe that is the honest truth of the situation. I worked with my fair share of excellent designers, and I can't recall any of them ever groaning about any browser chrome, like a scroll bar, ever, with the notable exception of the viewable page space consumed by browser plugins which each added their own toolbar to the browser UI itself. What a horrid period of time that was...
If it is such an urgent need, where was that need 20 years ago? The web hasn't changed THAT MUCH. Scroll bars were an accepted thing; unquestioned. But today they're too intrusive? Or they consume too much space? What the?
I understand that the science of interactivity has matured, so I'm willing to admit that we know more about how users behave than we did 20 years ago. I still don't believe that any UI would ever benefit from hidden scroll bars over always visible scroll bars.
But how do I know I need to start scrolling to see the scrollbar, when I can't see the scrollbar so I know there is anything to scroll to?
Seriously, that's another thing I hate about infiniscroll: if I come to a giant list where I know I've looked at the top 10% of, it makes it impossible to jump down approximately 10%, or otherwise to a region I know I haven't explored.
Edit: And, of course, if you do want to go n% down, there's no choice but to page down, wait, page down, wait, page down ...
However, that one I blame the browsers for. I distinctly remember the back button working differently, where it would reliably take you to the exact state of the previous page, just as if you had opened the current link a new tab and closed it, but it changed at some point, and most sites do something that destroys the state when you back into them as well.