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Comment by konschubert | Hacker News Reader

So this is basically run on a trust basis, right? And if you steal, you will eventually get caught on video and be blocked from entering the store?

I can imagine this working well in small villages. You'll get a few thieves and vandals, but eventually you can weed them out.

Pretty genius.

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> So this is basically run on a trust basis, right?

No, from the OP: > works in conjunction with BankID, a secure national identification app operated by Sweden's banks

You are identified, so it should be easy to see on camera who steals and then they can send the cops on you.

My worry is more about tourists[1]. As someone who has travelled extensively in rural Europe I would not appreciate a growing network of stores that requires country-specific id.

[1] Technologically disadvantaged people are already mentioned in the article.

Spot on. I remember trying to get petrol in Belgium at night sometime in the late 90s. The country had its own smart debit card programme (very leading edge) and garages there had unattended pumps that would accept these cards to cater for out-of-hours customers. But, being a UK tourist without a local payment card, I was stuffed. Stopped at every garage along the way, getting increasingly concerned, before coasting in on fumes to one that was actually open all night and would accept my Visa or MC.

I've had that last summer driving through Germany - stopped to charge my car, only to discover that all charging stations at that particular Auobahn station will only accept a German-issued[0] debit or credit cards. As a tourist....tough luck I guess?

[0]I knew it because of course you had to use an app to start charging, and the app had a pre-filled and unchangable country set to Germany for billing details.

I had that problem with rail tickets in Germany, too... stations with machines that would only accept the local kind of bank card, not my Visa card.

Weirdly, at the main station in Bochum (for example), there were some machines that would accept a Visa card - but even the staff in the in-person ticket office seemed to be completely ignorant of this. (And no, they wouldn't accept my card there, either. But eventually - no thanks to DB's staff - I found a machine I could use.)

Let's just say I wasn't impressed.

I've run into a similar problem in Sweden with parking. Many places have app-controlled parking, I have the biggest apps, but some parking places have other solutions. One place had removed the on-site machines that took card payments, and only had a phone number. I called the number from my Swedish phone number, entered my Swedish personal ID number, and then the automated service informed me that they couldn't process me because I wasn't a Swedish resident... So there was no way for me to pay for my parking.

Non-swedes would be even more shit out of luck than I was, they wouldn't even be able to navigate the phone service. So weird.

This happened to me driving from Germany to the Netherlands on a Sunday. We needed petrol but could not stop in Belgium because all of the stations were closed and the machines only accepted a Belgian bank card. Luckily we were close enough to Luxembourg to get petrol there. This was around 2004/05. I wonder if it's still this way now

Thats a really good point regarding EU citizens having access to this service. Swedish services are thoroughly tied to the bankid/personnal number. There is a EU regulation [1] somewhat related to this that prevent sellers from discriminating the availability of goods based on your place of residence.

I wonder if this regulation applies to these shops.

A couple of paragraphs are particularly interesting, #18 and #19:

(18) [...] traders should not, through the use of technological measures or otherwise, prevent customers from having full and equal access to online interfaces, including in the form of mobile applications, based on their nationality, place of residence or place of establishment. [...]

(19) In order to ensure the equal treatment of customers and to avoid discrimination, as required by this Regulation, traders should not design their online interface, or apply technological means, in a way that would, in practice, not allow customers from other Member States to easily complete their orders.

[1] https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?qid=15422088...

I'm pretty sure the regulation is violated all the time everywhere, i.e. vending machines that require some local electronic card (e.g. to prove your age for sigarettes).

It's a pity, of course, but not a "new" problem.

Which EU countries have cigarette vending machines? I've never seen such a thing, in the countries I shop they're behind a cashier. Sometimes even hidden so that if you don't know what to ask for you're not getting it.

Germany, Austria, Italy at least.

Interesting, I'll have to keep my eyes a bit more open when traveling.

In Germany, cigarette vending machines were incredibly common until around 15 years ago, but I haven't seen one in ages. Between stricter age verification requirements, a decline in smoking in general, and vandalism towards those machines, the profit margin was probably stretched too slim to continue maintaining these machines.

Spain as well, you can't get cigs from gas stations or super markets like in the UK.

Netherlands and Germany have them.

I kinda see this as the next step after self checkout - conventional wisdom was that there would be too much theft and I think there is slightly more (intentional or accidental) but it is more than offset by the fact that you can pay just one employee and run 8 checkout lines

My grocery store has a self-scan and checkout that works on trust basis with random audits. Some stores had to get rid of it because of stealing, but thankfully mine has kept it. I find it very fast and don't mind the occasional audits at all. Small price to pay, and still faster than if I had stayed in line.

The value the self-scan systems have for the shop owners is not in automation but the fact the work is reported on customer, with of course no price reduction. That should be forbidden. I boycott those systems and wait for the human clerk to do his job, this way a little of the money made by the shop is redistributed.

I would rather do it my self for very little extra time use, rather than waste even more time waiting in line.

For me it depends. If I have a shopping cart full, including typically, a bunch of produce, I'll go to a cashier. If I've got a half dozen bar coded items to scan, I'll probably just do self-checkout.

Some shops have scan yourself where you scan things with your phone when putting them in your basket, even produce then have a barcode, maybe not on the item but then at a sign at their location.

I've never seen that in the US and produce isn't barcoded unless it's shrink-wrapped--which it isn't in most stores. And I'm not sure that seems any easier than a normal self-checkout in any case.

There are scales and look-up tables for the produce out in the produce area (the look-up tables are also programmed into the scales but the UI is slow and tedious).

So you gather your, say broccoli, look up the PLU code (it also might be on a sticker affixed to the item), put it on the scale, enter the code, and the scale prints out your bar code that you scan.

I'm a dozen miles north of Boston, MA.

Mine you get a little "zapper" to scan the bar codes with. I select, scan, and bag into my cart. When I get to checkout everything is bagged, so I save that time as well.

The only "pain" is having to look up the produce and weigh it, but with a little practice I got to be pretty fast at that too.

No price reduction as compared to what? Maybe all the prices would be 0.5% higher if all the checkout was human-only? At the end of the day, the customer is paying for most everything in the shop. (They're the one bringing the money into the system. There may be a small amount of payment for placement or other advertising, or financing via invoices, but the vast majority of money coming into the shop is coming from customers.)

I can't see a reason why self-checkouts should be forbidden. If people don't like them, don't use them. Why should people who do like them be forbidden from shopping in a way that they prefer?

It should be forbidden because it makes people work illegally (because of a lack of contract and pay). In France a restaurant was fined by the work inspection because they asked their customers to give plates back. Using the same logic and existing laws, a shop shouldn’t be allowed to make its customers work for it.

Should flat-pack furniture that you have to assemble yourself also be forbidden?

Should Gentoo Linux that you have to compile the kernel yourself also be forbidden?

Should cooking at home also be forbidden?

Where does the line go where you have to pay someone to do something for you instead of doing it yourself?

And you have to scan your bank card (which apparently in Sweden is a secondary ID card) to enter. I wonder if they do an extra verification to make sure you just didn't steal someone's card, maybe with a PIN?

Hah, I guess for the vandals, being blacklisted by the network would be a big hassle...

I haven't used the stores themselves but they reference using BankId which is an national identification app on your phone you link to your bank account that also requires a pin code.

I wonder what will the non-banked people do in the future? Their life is in many cases miserable enough as it is, not being able to purchase basic groceries because you don't have a credit/debit card is next-level capitalist dystopia.

A lot of Sweden is already like this. They're a super cashless society currently. I have only lived in Stockholm, but a large number of places will not accept cash in any form. This is done for security and convenience reasons, and most Swedes from what I have seen seem to prefer and like this method. It definitely has implications of course... but none that seem to be bothering the masses.

Here's some info about it: https://sweden.se/business/cashless-society

In some countries, and I wouldn't be surprised if Sweden is one of them, it's a requirement that you be allowed to have a bank account. You can't be refused.

That’s very good to hear, from where I’m from (Eastern Europe) a bank account is very heavily linked to a current physical address (as in, you must have a physical address officially attached to your name which in itself is a quite cumbersome process) and oftentimes with an additional proof (like an utilities bill on your name attached to that address). That makes getting a bank account a little difficult for many people.

The bank id is not a physical card. Rather, it's an app that provides 2FA and which is backed by the major Swedish banks. It is the de facto standard for electronic identification in Sweden. Originally, it was mostly a desktop application that helped you log on to your internet bank, but it has increasingly become a way to log onto web sites - anything from e-commerce to government agencies - while proving your identity.

Not quite. They have your ID and banking information when you enter.

  You open the doors using the company's app, which works in conjunction with BankID, a secure national identification app operated by Sweden's banks.

Of course they have a way to identify you and prevent you from signing up again under another name.

How else are they going to block you?

But just because they have your BankID it doesn't mean that they have your account balance or other banking data, if that's what you're referring to.

Stealing is still a crime, so there is no need to have direct access to your account. At the very least you would owe the store for what you stole, just like if you're late on an electricity bill. You essentially can't escape that without emigrating.

I want to add a note to people who aren't familiar - Sweden has a government debt collector[0]. Unlike the US where I'l told you can mostly dodge private debts and it just becomes a massive nuisance and credit nightmare, in Sweden the government will actually garnish your salary and repossess your stuff for private debts.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Enforcement_Authority

I believe it's also called court bailiff and is fairly usual thing in the EU.

> Sweden the government will actually garnish your salary and repossess your stuff for private debts.*

It's called "attachment of earnings" in the UK there is no special agency for that, it's just a court order sent to the debtor employer.

This also exists in most US states, I believe it's often called "wage garnishment" there.

Repossession or seizure of property also exists in the US and the UK (and indeed most countries). Here in the UK there's even a TV show about that, with the cool name of "The Sheriffs are coming"...

Do you not have road-side produce honesty stands where you live? It's no different to that.

No, this is different, because they can block you.

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