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Prepare to be shocked. The majority of SWEs employed at Google in the EU (Zurich, Dublin, London) have comp packages over 150k.

Note: 'comp packages'. Their salary won't always be over 150k, but when including stock and bonus, total comp will be. That's many thousands of SWEs.

If you look at advertised salaries, you won't see those numbers, because it won't include bonus/stock as those are considered 'at risk'. But considering that to not get bonus/stock you need to be on a verge of getting fired, it's not exactly a large risk.

Re 600k: It's not that uncommon. In excess of 5% of Big Tech SWEs make that sort of money.

> The majority of SWEs employed at Google in the EU (Zurich, Dublin, London) have comp packages over 150k.

Nitpick: of those three, only Dublin is in the EU.

>>> Prepare to be shocked. The majority of SWEs employed at Google in the EU (Zurich, Dublin, London) have comp packages over 150k.

1) It's factually wrong.

2) These 3 countries are paying in 3 different currencies so you might want to clarify 150k of WHAT. With an exchange rate of 1.4 in some directions it's actually quite important ^^

3) No matter the currency, it's still factually wrong :D

Do you have a reason you believe it to be factually wrong?

Knowing people who worked there on lower salary. Recruiter invitations to interview there for a lower salary.

If you want to be more specific, you really want to clarify the currency and the location because there is a massive disparity.

The highest paying by far is Zurich, in CHF, that also happens to have the lowest exchange rate (though it's been climbing steadily over the past decade).

Ok, it's mildly funny that that was enough for you to errantly declare 'factually wrong'.

1. 'salary' != 'total comp'. The bonus + stock components are substantial.

2. 'The majority' does not mean 'everyone'. There are def SWEs that have less than EUR150K as total comp, they are just the minority of all SWEs employed.

3. 'total comp' is very strongly affected by performance. High performing engineers at the same level can see a total comp twice what their lesser performing peers get. Looking at only 1 or 2 people can give a very skewed picture versus the real overall data.

4. Recruiter invitations will NOT be for total comp, only salary, because BigTech are careful to avoid any sort of implied contract or commitment for the bonus/stock portion of the comp. This creates a slightly odd dynamic where the recruiters can't talk about the real comp for the position. Given that bonus/stock is such a large fraction of comp it means that people will turn down recruiters in the mistaken belief that the comp is too low (as you apparently did?)

5. Zurich does pay a bit higher but on an absolute scale, it's nothing to do with the exchange rate. (ZRH total comp converted from francs to pounds is still likely to be a bit higher than the equiv London SWE total comp).

1. I considered both "salary" and "total comp", it's the same result either way. The number you gave is that far off. :p

2. If you consider L5 (senior) and above to be the majority then that might be true, but I wouldn't call that the majority.

We can agree that it's meaningless to discuss comp online with no context. ;)

P.S. Zurich pays more on the lower levels.

How much of the comp package extends beyond the first year? In my end of the woods the big stock grant only happens on hiring or special events, and after that it's salary & bonus.

There may be a hiring bonus on top that isn't repeated, but the rest is ongoing.

Your shock at 600k is understandable, but note that the people pulling those numbers mostly don’t need to exist at smaller or less tech oriented companies.

It’s primarily either senior engineers who consistently have outsized business impact (for instance identifying and building systems that generate tens of millions of new recurring revenue for the company each year), or are significantly beyond senior, such that they’re having a similar business impact as would be expected of the C-suite of a 10-100 million/year company.

When you have a tech company with 10 billion/yr revenue, you need hundreds of people that fit into the above scopes. It’s definitely not most employees, but a career path into those positions becomes possible. Whereas in a smaller or less tech focused business there wouldn’t be enough scope for those people to justify their outsized pay.

I think the key here is "tech oriented" companies. If the product of the company is tech, then it's more possible for the devs to make a significant positive revenue impact.

In those cases, if the numbers add up (600k dev generates +3+MM revenue per year because of what and how they do), then it makes sense.

Perhaps the biggest shift in EU developer salaries will come from a shift in what types of businesses operate here. If that begins with US tech companies expanding here, then great. But I would like to see EU founded and grown tech companies to compete. I'm afraid what probably happens is the good ideas get built here and bought up by the US giants.

600k in Silicon Valley is certainly not unheard of. That's within range for Staff Engineer and EM roles at top companies, and there are a lot of Staff Engineers and EMs. In fact, it can go up quite a bit from there. M2 [0] pay can be in the 700k-900k range, and Director pay is typically 1M+. Keep in mind that salaries rarely go above 250k -- most of this compensation is in stock grants.

[0] M2 is an engineering manager with quite a bit of scope, possibly with some M1s as reports. Imagine a group of 20-50 people total. Exact headcount can vary because "scope" is a bit of an abstract concept that is correlated with -- but not perfectly matched to -- headcount.

When I was promoted to mid-level developer at Booking in 2017/2018, the salary range for the position started at around 60k. These days, it's probably in the low 70s.

I made $55k per year in 1990 as a software developer in the San Francisco area, but then Apple/Adobe and others here entered into an illegal hiring pact to fight it.. later, Internet.. things changed. Wages for working people, even to some extent software, have been stagnant for thirty years, while the cost of higher education and distinctive homes rose 300 percent, depending on your setup, health care too..

literal evidence, I can see cars advertised for sale that are essentially the same price point as they were in the 1990s (working person's market), yet the Dow Jones market average went from "breaking ten thousand" to what, thirty thousand plus now?

Something is very, very suspect with the high-end money game in the last thirty years. People who do actual work? see George Carlin, he will tell you

For comparison I make mid 70s as a mid level dev in a medium cost of living area of the US.

I feel that very often when Europe compares itself to the US on this, they only look at the super HCOL areas like SV, Seattle, NYC.

I feel like we are underpaid still, compared to SV and NYC devs.

For another comparison my coworker was recently promoted to senior dev and he is starting in the mid 90s.

Also there is no fancy comp, we have employee health insurance(that we still have to pay for both monthly and when we use any medical service -- for non Americans this is very standard), we have a 401k(retirement portfolio) that our employer matches the first 5% of everything that goes into it. We also have a few other niche benefits, but no fancy comp.

I just wanted to give a more realistic portrayal of the usual American dev.

I guess this is worth remembering. There are a lot of lower paying dev jobs in the US, but they don't get much publicity :).

Part of the problem is lack of awareness, and prior to more recently, lack of remote options. There are countless job boards and recruiting firms, and millions of "candidates" (many of whom fail FizzBuzz, but that is not visible in a simple resume).

If the qualified supply and the demand had awareness of each other, and if remote were an option, it would be better for most people. The companies would be able to acquire the talent they needed, and the talent would have better options.

On the other hand, the current system works enough... there may be some low quality developers working at some companies, but they just may be getting enough done that the companies can function. And the more skilled, more motivated people will obviously seek and possibly move for the better jobs and pay.

401k (or RRSP in Canada where I am) are also something that Europeans differ on. I don't know about the Netherlands. But Germany definitely is seriously lacking in this or ahead depending on your personal preferences.

Germany still puts a lot of emphasis on the state pension system. They also acknowledged quite some time ago now that they need a private system next to it. But in true German fashion it's very bureaucratic and puts all of your money in some insurance companies hands.

Instead of giving you tax free accumulation in whatever financial vehicle you choose, everything has to go through funds that scrape off most of your profits. Well actually they give you ~800EUR of interest/dividend/capital gains tax free.

Just so you understand, in Canada I can pay ~$CAD5500 (it changes from year to year) into a tax free savings account with after tax money. None of the gains or dividends from this will ever be taxed. And an RRSP I can contribute 18% of last year's income to (max ~$27.000CAD right now) and the capital gains and dividends from this can grow tax free and I only pay taxes on it once I'm retired and in a lower bracket and contributions lower my current tax burden.

And Germany allows me 800EUR of tax free dividends/gains. Laughable. Truly abysmal.

(at least instead of paying your regular tax rate on capital gains/dividends beyond those 800EUR, which at max is 45%, you just pay 25% regardless of your income - haha).

I am shocked too. The highest advertised salary I've seen recently in the constant emails I get from EU recruiters is around €7,000/month (and that was with a message saying it's well above market rate). I have 15 years of experience in software engineering.

EDIT: I had written 70,000 per month but meant 7,000... which is 84,000 per year, or just below 100,000 USD.

I had a friend work as snr. engineer at a startup taking a pay cut down to 80k, then went to work for big US tech company presumably for a significantly higher salary. All in Amsterdam (with some time remote). Certainly no senior dev in Amsterdam worth their salt would need to work for €55k or even probably €65k unless they chose to work at a startup that cannot pay competitive rate, or have other priorities

Edit I should add I'm also earning well above that as snr engineer in Amsterdam at a startup.

So this info is a bit old since I haven't been there in a while. When I was working for a contracting company back in Germany maybe 10 years ago, the standard rate they would charge for us was around 75EUR. That's 156kEUR.

This is what the "general contractor" is paid by the huge corporation. Not sure how much of that goes to the individual contractor and will depend on negotiation. Also there were some people that were billed at higher rates but obviously they would try and keep the number of those low.

Also keep in mind that from that you would have to pay all of the health and employment insurance premiums yourself. If your employer pays you 65kEUR they pay quite a bit on top of that in employment insurance health insurance etc.

To give you an idea, a company I work for pays contractor companies around 40-50€/h so about 75k€/year, and out of that the contributor gets about 30k€ before taxes.

Also, your 75€/h gives about 125-130k€/year, not 156k. So those guys would probably get paid 50-60k€ before taxes.

Not sure where you are. The example I gave was in Germany as mentioned. Where's yours?

I guess it depends on how you calculate as well:

My calculation was a simple 75EUR per hour * 40 hours per week * 52 weeks a year to arrive at 156k.

We could also go with 75EUR per hour * 8 hours a day * 255 business days in 2021 (I chose Hesse as the state as that's where Frankfurt is located, home to lots of banks and such, i.e. lots of contracting). That's 153k.

Since you're a contractor, choose how many weeks of vacation you wanna give yourself and subtract.

If you as a contractor get only 30k before taxes, then something is seriously wrong. I worked for a contracting company back when and that's what the rates are based on. I was an internal employee for them and I got paid more than the 30k you quote. I doubt an actual external contractor that we just placed would get less or just on par of what us employees got. That would not make any financial sense, as they would have to pay their own taxes, insurance etc. from it, while we don't.

Sorry, I was talking about contracting companies that provide work hours with their own employees, who are on contract. Companies like Altran for example.

I counted around 215-220 days of work per year for an employee. When counting holidays and so on that's about what you get in my experience in several European countries (mainly France and Spain, but also Germany where rates are higher it's true).

And yes, those employees get paid less than the internal employees of their customer. That's why they're often young.

Concerning freelance contractors, they get the full 100k€+ a year, but they then about half is going away in taxes. Still it's significantly more than employees, which compensates for the instability.

That makes much more sense now. So just a little difference in understanding/definition of "contractor" :)

And I can definitely corroborate the "young" part as well. We had some external contractors that we placed with our clients that made less than the 75EUR (IIRC maybe 60EUR or something) but they were young and/or from Eastern Europe.

IME, recruiters in the US will give a range from lowest to no higher than midpoint (and often lower).

The stock compensation is a huge factor. $200k base salary but expect at least $100k/year from stock grants and with the crazy high increasing valuation of tech company stocks that can easily double.

$200k base is not shabby at all, unless you live in SF or NYC.

$200k is about 168k EUR, and that would give you a really nice life in Amsterdam (which is one of the more expensive EU cities). Assuming you like the character of the city, and pre-covid could tolerate the tourists (big challenge there!), it is a pretty great place.

Add some stock options, and bank those for retirement, and you have a heck of a great life just about anywhere in EU.