Google’s approach to Black schools explains why there's few Black engs in Tech
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Companies, not just Google, seem to have a real blind spot here, insofar as they seem to think they can just wait for Harvard or Stanford to graduate more Black students with the degrees they want. A lot of the Black people they want to hire are at HBCUs. Many upper middle class Black people—the folks whose kids had access to technology to tinker with growing up, just like the upper middle class white and asian people who make up much of Google’s workforce—attended HBCUs. And their kids want to go to HBCUs, both to be in a supportive environment but also out of a sense of contributing their economic and social capital to a primarily Black college or university. (Obviously this doesn’t describe all Black people. But it describes a very large group of Black people, and is something that has no analog among white or Asian people. I myself was totally unaware of this dynamic until moving to an area with a lot of affluent Black people.) If companies cared about equity, they should be lining up to hire from HBCUs.
[1] How to pretend systemic racism does not exist? (with eng subtitles) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4ciwjHVHYg
[2] Let's talk about what it's like to be a black person in the US. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WD8mWq0Hdcw
[3] Let's talk about being armed and black. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zL_IX8yX_JU
[4] How cops are trained to shoot you in your home. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuzQrbio2Qw
Other resources include James Baldwin's books and documentaries. His 'The Fire Next Time' is just 120 pages [5].
'The Price of the Ticket' and 'I Am Not Your Negro' are good documentaries [6][7].
[5] https://www.amazon.com/Fire-Next-Time-James-Baldwin/dp/06797...
[6] https://www.amazon.com/James-Baldwin-Price-Ticket/dp/B01M25W...
[7] https://www.amazon.com/I-Am-Not-Your-Negro/dp/B01MR52U7T
[8] Also the 1965 Baldwin and Buckley debate on the theme "Has the American dream been achieved at the expense of the American negro?" > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxLUbKebYvc
Is Google wrong about this? Google would not be successful if it were unable to evaluate technical competence.
Google does not give a fuck about black people. They only care about their public image, which is degrading day by day. The idea that Google can fix "racial diversity in tech" is absurd at best. These are deeply rooted systemic issues that need to be addressed from the ground up. No amount of proselytizing about how much a company focuses on racial diversity and hiring different backgrounds is going to have any impact on that.
But I'm sure now that people are capitalizing "Black" that things will change :)
I don't disagree with the substance of your comment, but it's worth pointing out that Alphabet is a company with a $1,416,000,000,000 market cap.
If any non-governmental entity could be said to have the resources to address "systemic issues" at the root, it would be these giant multinationals.
If Google wanted to, it could fund CS education in primary and secondary schools in black neighbourhoods, it could launch a finance wing to offer mortgages to families disadvantaged by a history of red-lining, it could endow scholarships at HBCUs, it could invest directly in infrastructure projects in majority-black cities...
Obviously there's no obligation for them to do these things, but if they cared to really make a dent in America's racial issues (instead of just making white folks feel more positively about Google) they are not lacking the capital to take a stab at it. They certainly don't mind pissing away millions on internet balloons.
I just want google to provide me reasonable search results, respect my privacy and follow all applicable laws.
But it's also worth noting what a dishonest dodge it is for these huge companies posturing like "oh we care so deeply about this issue, but it's a pipeline problem we can't fix!" - as though they can't build whatever pipeline they want to get the candidates they want to get.
They have to say this. The executives of these large internet companies get dragged in front of congress regularly and some politicians built their entire careers on passing punitive targeted legislation against said companies.
> as though they can't build whatever pipeline they want to get the candidates they want to get.
That's what they're doing when they're trying to influence the curriculum of computer science departments.
As an aside, I remember flipping through AP (high school level) computer science tests and got a kick out of how the state education board tested students. Here's an example
Consider the following code segment.
List<String> animals = new ArrayList<String>();
animals.add("dog");
animals.add("cat");
animals.add("snake");
animals.set(2, "lizard");
animals.set(3, "fish");
animals.remove(3);
System.out.println(animals);
What is printed as a result of executing the code segment?
(a) [dog, fish, cat]
(b) [dog, fish, lizard]
(c) [dog, lizard, fish]
(d) [fish, dog, cat]
(e) The code throws an ArrayIndexOutOfBoundsException exception.
https://www.apcsaexam.org/uploads/1/0/7/7/107712547/ap_sampl...
> whats wrong with our politics
Lobbyists, the need for fundraising by officials putting them in the pockets and interests of corporations and entities... do we really want to go there? Corporations and entities have incredible influence in politics; to not acknowledge this would be disingenuous. Politics is driven by money, idealism be damned, and Alphabet has a lot of this. Why shouldn't one expect them (well, their subsidiary, Google) to back up what they said?
To be fair, I also understand where you're coming from. I'm from a privileged socioeconomic class, from a tech industry perspective. So it's easy for me to say "I don't want to get into the politics because it doesn't affect me; all I want is reasonable search results and for them to leave me alone". We have (or were able to earn because we had the resources) the baseline privileges and advantages in life that enable us to have this attitude. But some groups still don't, and it's my belief (and hopefully, society's someday) that we should effectively (not just rhetorically or trivially) give them the pathways to level the playing field.
The reason Asian kids don’t avoid it is because of how seriously their parents take their education. You guys want to fix the pipeline problem, talk to Asian fucking parents and learn something.
They care about them so long as the posturing that they engage with can make them money.
In my opinion, they get away with this because the word equality, when they say that they "care" about "equality," no longer has any attachment to class consciousness.
Amazon does this right in front of our faces. Nike and Apple do it but you have to peek behind the curtain a bit. Google, as well, but now you really have to dig, hence this article.
Your comments based on personal experience and curiosity are of course welcome.
My comment was entirely based on my experience with how companies treat people. Honestly, it feels like you simply did not like what I stated and decided to instate your vague guidelines as reason to remove my comment.
I enjoy HN and the discussions that are had here, but I don't believe that curious conversation has to consist of emotionally muted statements.
I do think you were wrong to remove my comment given what the guidelines state.
No one's saying you have to be emotionally muted! (I probably have to be, but it doesn't mean anyone else does.) There's no problem with vibrant emotion—the problem is with the sort of repetition that makes up with intensity for what it lacks in new information. It seems to be a kind of mechanism—the mind turns to indignation in the absence of anything more substantial: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...
When you say "My comment was entirely based on my experience with how companies treat people."—it's precisely that which your comment lacked. I believe you that it was based on your experience, but it didn't actually share any of that experience; it just angrily repeated some stale tropes. Such a comment is activating rather than interesting, which is why it evokes worse discussion from others. If you had actually shared your relevant experience the comment would probably have been more interesting than activating, and that is what evokes better discussion from others.
(I didn't remove your comment, but I did auto-collapse this low-quality flamewar subthread. That is one trick we use to try to jiggle the system out of its failure modes.)
It's quite irritating to have something done like that by someone who is essentially the shot-caller on a site like this on an issue which boils down to opinion. The highbrow condescension isn't necessary either... Anyways, perhaps it's moderation like this that's necessary to keep the forum quality. I do wish it were approached in a different manner however. Even just asking for more clarification or elaboration would have been a better move in this situation.
Anyways, thanks for moderating I guess. I understand that it's a thankless job.
Calling the shots doesn't just boil down to opinion–there are principles here. They don't determine everything precisely—different people would make different calls. But the principles aren't infinitely flexible, either, and we have a lot of practice in applying them.
The fix is simple.
Focus on your own home and yourself first.
Teach your kids more at home. Be more involved with them. Teach them to take responsibility. Don’t do silly degrees that cost huge student loans. Do more STEM. Start a small business. Eat better food. Exercise.
Sure there is systemic stuff out there - but it’s 2021 and you have a choice now in what you want to do with your life.
An additional 10% of the population of every race doing just the above would make a bigger difference than any company, government or organization could.
Google does not owe you anything.
This is literally the ethos of HBCUs, which graduate a disproportionate share of Black STEM majors. The point of the article is that Google is ignoring HBCU candidates.
...
> In lieu of a tier, Google’s University Programs recruiting division, responsible for forging partnerships with universities, labeled [HBCUs] “long tail” schools, in reference to the fact that it could take a long time before they would produce a large number of graduates qualified to work at Google, according to the Google employees.
...
> At the time, the 16-year-old company had not hired a single HBCU computer science graduate into an entry-level software engineer role, according to a 2013 document.
I think "basically wouldn't hire from" is a fair characterization of hiring zero for 16 years, and only a handful since then. (And no, interns are not hires).
That being the ethos of HBCU’s is already too late.
Wow, I'm glad you have the program down for all the low income people. Why don't they pick themselves up by their bootstraps (which, incidentally, is physically impossible).
> Teach kids at home
Assumes your parents are educated and have time. Neither of my parents passed the 10th grade. What were they supposed to teach me precisely?
> Be more involved with them
Hard to do when my parents worked jobs and had to rely on public transportation and/or bicycles to get to work. Hard to be really involved with your kid when you continually face 12+ days just to make slightly-above minimum wage
> Teach them to take responsibility
What does this even mean? "Sure little Johnny. That company says you weren't a 'culture add.' Now take responsibility, internalize that and... do whatever it is that would make you a culture add. Who knows?"
> "Don’t do silly degrees that cost huge student loans."
Hi there. I get paid 6 figures at a FAANG and I triple majored in liberal arts. It's not that degrees are 'silly.' It's that business has a narrow view of what's important.
My team is full of people with Master's degrees. Other than the military vets, I'm the only person without a master's degree. They all ask me how I quickly diagnose problems.
Pro tip: It's because my silly bachelor's taught me how to critically think and synthesize disparate pieces of information into a coherent whole. Their 'prestigious' degrees taught them how to write C++ and Java. Neither of those skills are useful on my team.
> "Do more STEM"
Not everyone does well in STEM, nor does tech require a heavy STEM background. Also, it's a little difficult to get help on trigonometry when your parents are under educated.
> "Start a small business."
Creating small businesses take time and money. So does your 'Teach your kids more' and 'be more involved with them'. Where are you going to find all this extra time?
Not to mention you have to have some cushion failures in business. If you don't have generational wealth (which people who go to HBCU's typically don't), creating a small business is a perilous enterprise that can ruin you easier than it can pull you out of poverty.
> "Eat better food"
Takes more money (non-processed food is by in large more expensive) and time (non-processed food has to be cooked). So that's 4 things that take more time.
> "Exercise"
The fifth thing that takes more time.
---
Where are low income families supposed to get all this extra time when they're spending most of their time simply trying to make it to the next paycheck?
This advise may make a good self-help book. You might even make a bit of money (see how successful Dale Carnegie got with his tripe!). But simple fix ignores the realities of growing up in a generationaly poor family with under-educated parents.
Among people in the top 20% of income ages 40-50 (a reasonable proxy for the households where most Google employees grew up), 7% are Black compared to 12% of the overall population that is Black. It’s ignorant to turn every issue involving Black people into a discussion of inner city poverty. (And especially ignorant in the context of discussing HBCUs, as in this article, which are a pillar of the Black upper middle class.)
Because HBCUs are a gateway to the middle class for many low income people who come from generational poverty? It's an outlet for many first-time college students and those scraping toward the middle class.
And the 'ride bicycles to work to make barely above minimum wage' is from both personal experience and the fact that the generationally poor are largely dependant on forms of transportation other than personal vehicles.
> "It’s ignorant to turn every issue involving Black people into a discussion of inner city poverty. (And especially ignorant in the context of discussing HBCUs, as in this article, which are a pillar of the Black upper middle class.)"
HBCUs are a pillar of the Black upper middle class, but the majority of students are still lower-income. So it's relevant to talk about low-income students.[1][2][3]
[1] https://cmsi.gse.rutgers.edu/sites/default/files/EMreport_R4... (p. 11) [2] https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2019/10/01/more-ec... [3] https://archive.is/swhoh
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What does this even mean?!
No pay/peekwall --> https://archive.is/Idmdc
it just goes to show when you make your bed with an alligator, it eventually eats you too.