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Comment by jjjeii3 | Hacker News Reader

Meanwhile, EU salaries are stagnating and it's one of the worst places to be a software engineer. An average salary for a software developer in Germany was 46000 Euro per year in 2020, and don't forget, it's one of the richest countries in Europe. The average in EU is even lower... After paying taxes a single person with that salary will only have 2400 Euro per month (~ 2800 USD). The guy who cleans our house in Germany without any education (an African refugee) makes more money than that. Even my friends from Ukraine (which is a much poorer country) don't want to move there, because in Ukraine they only pay 5% taxes and cost of living is much lower. So they can afford a much better life comparing to German developers.

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>The guy who cleans our house in Germany without any education (an African refugee) makes more money than that

Another way of framing this is that Germany is successfully combating inequality, right? Professional-managerial class incomes and lifestyles aligning and sometimes inverting with working-class incomes is sort of the point.

But that's ridiculous - many many years of continual study and professional development are required to be a developer - with lots of it happening of the job in the developer's education and personal time.

About a week of on the job training is required to go from an entry level cleaner to an experienced cleaner.

Not only that, but in Germany many companies will not hire you, if you don't have a degree. So you must also spend a lot of time (3-5 years) and money to get a Bachelor/Master degree.

Money? What money? AFAIK degree programs in German public universities are nearly free.

In public universities yes, but not in private universities. You will also have other expenses as well when you study (rent an appartment, food etc.)

Don't do that then?

Depending on who you ask, income inequality and returns to education/skill are anywhere from closely related to the same fact.

Maybe. All i know is i would much rather be a computer programmer than a cleaner, even if being a cleaner paid more.

It is ridiculous if you associate pay with degree/profession, but it is not if you associate pay with the offer and demand equilibrium. If there are no revenues to be taken or no demands for a professional, there’s no reason to pay them more. Degree does mean someone deserves to make more.

The managerial class in Germany earns much more than normal workers. The point here isn't that Germany somehow successfully combated inequality, just that it doesn't value software engineers as much as the US or even the UK does.

Another way of framing this is that this is completely false, a house cleaner in Germany doesn't make anywhere close to 2400€/month after taxes. Unless he works all day and night including weekends without declaring any of it maybe, and even then that's a stretch.

When I left Germany in 2007, I was making 52000 Euro per year. Crazy to hear that salaries remained practically flat. When I went to Silicon Valley, my pay practically doubled overnight, and now 13 years later I make 10x as much (and my job hasn't really changed much).

Curious though how your house cleaner is making more than a software engineer?

You make half a million Euros a year as a software engineer?

Not unreasonable if the parent a senior engineer or is counting stock appreciation.

I make what I consider OK money in the UK, but the US is on a totally different level. I can only assume we're undervalued here!

I think so, just having worked with UK colleagues who were no different in ability and looking for opportunities overseas as a way to explore more places while holding a steady job.

This will get downvotes but its worth it.

Another reason for your Ukraine friends not wanting to move to Germany is because in one single comment you somehow made it clear that your cleaner is an African refugee and that Ukraine is poorer. Let that sink in.

The question I would ask is why is there less demand in the EU for software engineers. The fact is software startups in europe are pretty small compared to the US and UK. For instance german VC investment in tech startups vs british investment is significantly lower [1]. The rest of the eu is even smaller on a country by country basis. The eu tries covering that gap with government grants and eu funds which rarely produce much return in tech. The EU as a whole doesnt have the culture of risk needed for startups to thrive. We are safer with the same car makers since ww2, same tv manufacturers, and having a law for everything. We dont want amazons, facebooks, and googles around here because they kill our small shops, violate our privacy, and teslas threaten our precious diesel engines.

So if we want higher salaries in the eu, and germany included, we need to loosen things up a bit to let startups “break” things and have vcs invest in them.

Or you could simply immigrate to east europe or the uk to either earn more or live a better life.

1. https://www.altfi.com/article/7458_london-tech-firms-receive...

> Another reason for your Ukraine friends not wanting to move to Germany is because in one single comment you somehow made it clear that your cleaner is an African refugee and that Ukraine is poorer. Let that sink in.

I am a software engineer from Ukraine. Why do you assume I should get offended by these factual statements made by the OP?

I am neither Ukrainian nor African, and I am not happy with the "African refugee cleaner" comment either. Was specifying that the cleaner was "African" really necessary?

I guess their point was that first generation immigrant without higher education can make more money doing menial work than sw engineer. Don't know if it true in Germany or OP was just exaggerating.

> I am a software engineer from Ukraine. Why do you assume I should get offended by these factual statements made by the OP?

I salute your confidence - I genuinely do. However, the statement is factually wrong.

You, as a software developer in Ukraine are unlikely to be "poor"[1] yet OP makes an attempt at enforcing that stereotype. By factoring in the cost of living, you are quite "rich".

Anecdotally, I spoke to someone from Romania a few years back when they were made an offer at Microsoft in London. They point blank refused an 80k GBP salary + bonus because, despite a lower income in Romania, their disposable income and quality of life was higher.

Some German immigrants to Romania, working at Ubisoft Bucharest, I was told, are quite impressed about how much more they earn compared to Germany.

After doing a bit of research I can see that salaries are indeed higher. Another anecdote may be that I wanted to hire someone remote for a UK contract and the daily rate was not much lower (it is lower if you factor in no VAT for intra EU invoicing, and lower agency fees and office costs / desk, but in practical terms its not). Some of the people working in IT in east Europe genuinely have a higher standard of living than in Germany. Compared to London the story is a bit different, but you rarely hear about a software engineer in their 30s, in east europe, living with "flatmates" because they cant afford their own property.

So really, I would reject stereotypes, particularly when they are not based on reality. Sure Ukraine overall has financial difficulties, but that stereotype simply doesn't apply to people in the context of our debate.

1. https://elitex.systems/blog/software-developers-salaries-us-...

> You, as a software developer in Ukraine are unlikely to be "poor"[1] yet OP makes an attempt at enforcing that stereotype. By factoring in the cost of living, you are quite "rich".

To me it looks like you and OP are in agreement because this is exactly what he said: "Even my friends from Ukraine (which is a much poorer country) don't want to move there, because in Ukraine they only pay 5% taxes and cost of living is much lower. So they can afford a much better life comparing to German developers."

EU engineers need to vote with their feet and simply go to SV for things to change.

H1-B are not that easy to get, but it might get better after the required minimum salaries were raised.

Heard mixed things about intra-company transfers from Europe to the US.

Otherwise it's rather difficult to get to SV.

Maybe it's time for EU countries to negotiate a better deal than H1.

Or just get an O-1.

Wouldn’t low engineer salaries encourage more startups in Germany? Relatively cheaper labor pool if the talent is good enough for Silicon Valley companies.

Funding is rather limited

Hey there’s also Canada! We don’t have San Francisco salaries but Toronto tech blows away the EU. With a job offer, you can get a visa in a few weeks.

No. Let say 120k CAD, that's 80k eur. Getting 80k euro in Germany is as hard (or as easy if you wish) as 120k in Canada.

A raw currency conversion isn't meaningful. It doesn't account for cost of living.

Sure, and say Munich ~ Toronto in that regard https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...

So why move to Canada?

> So why move to Canada?

Get Canadian citizenship after 3 years, and become eligible for TN visa, which is not subject to any lotteries or quotas.

Not that easy! TN visa is kind of automatic if one have engineering degree from Canada or related job offer. Even for 'software developer' it can be tricky. Also Canadian citizenship after 3 years is in reality 3 years + 1-2 years of the wait time. Source https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/se...

> Even for 'software developer' it can be tricky.

That's not been my experience when hiring. Serious candidates from serious schools don't seem to have any issues getting it.

CoL is often mentioned, but what's not is the saving rate.

Saving the same percentage in a higher CoL place gives you the option of moving out or retiring anywhere, including a high CoL location. You don't have these options if you make a lower wage at a lower CoL place.

FAANG salaries in Germany are higher. I recently turned down a 75k offer from a German e-commerce company for a competing offer (FAANG, 88k + RSUs) that paid more. This was for an Applied Scientist role, but the software engineering payscale at both these companies are similar, according to friends who work there. This was not a senior position either - I was a masters student while I was interviewing for these roles

>46000 Euro per month in

I guess you mean 4600€ per month.

FAANG salaries in Europe are not too bad, at least London seems to be okay-ish in terms of salary vs. CoL. The openings are rather limited and I never had any luck, but YMMV.

* per year (was a typo)

here is the source (in German):

https://www.daxx.com/de/blog/entwicklungstrends/it-gehaelter....

LOL. Is that the Ukraine that has an active war zone, multiple provinces annexed and mostly abandoned by Russia, and a comedian who played a president on TV... actually serving as president? The Ukraine that's mostly used as a punching bag in disputes between other countries?

If someone would rather live in the third most corrupt country in the world than in Germany, well, they can have it.

It's not a war, but a frozen conflict. Even Wikipedia says that:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frozen_conflict

I'm not sure I understand the point of this hair-splitting. There is a front line with land mines, ongoing armed conflict, and recent soldier casualties.

Saying that what Ukraine has is a "frozen conflict" and not a war zone is like a real estate agent calling a crappy house a "renovator's dream."

Ukrainian army only had 75 casualties in 2020... and this is on a very small area near the Russian border. The rest of the country is absolutely fine.

This is a continuing misrepresentation of a grim reality. The entirety of the US armed forces, in all of its "ongoing contingency operations" (euphemism for combat) around the entire world, has lost less than 75 people over the period of the last several years. "We've only had 75 people die in active combat on domestic soil last year!" is not a great sales pitch for Ukrainian quality of life.

"A very small area near the Russian border" is literally moving the goalposts. Until Russia stepped in and redrew the border of Ukraine, the front lines were a hundred miles from the border.

Not really sure the point that you're trying to make here. You seem to be implying that anyone living anywhere in Ukraine (such as Kyiv) is under constant threat of getting bombed by Russia, while jjjei3 is saying that Ukraine is relatively safe.

If you're so sure its so dangerous there, maybe you can pull up statistics about number/rate of shooting deaths there compared to the US?

I think what you're doing is called "sea-lioning" online. I mentioned numerous ways in which living in Ukraine misses basic first-world standards. Then you come along and say, no-no-no, you need to demonstrate this other statistic that I find more interesting.

100 people were murdered in Chicago in July (just one month) last year so does it mean US as a whole is dangerous? No, my suburban town had zero murders for last 4 years, there was one homicide in 2016 (domestic dispute) and then no murders for 10 years before that. On the other hand it’s unclear which one is safer - South Chicago or Kabul.

Donbass in Ukraine is dangerous and a no go war zone. Downtown Kiev/Lviv are peaceful and have an excellent quality of life with amazing restaurants and nightlife.

You can’t average big countries.

Oh for goodness sake... there were government snipers shooting dozens of people in broad daylight in Kyiv just 6 years ago.

After tax income for software engineer in Ukraine and Germany is about the same and Ukraine is much cheaper place to live. Most of the country is pretty nice and corruption will most likely play in your favor (small bribe for speeding) if it affects you at all.

I was amazed at how low quality of life is for engineer in Berlin where all you can afford on avg salary is shoebox, you have to look at prices when shopping for food and raising family on one income is very hard.

Speaking from family experience, here's what actually happens: someone driving an expensive car drunk hits you. Then they pay a small bribe and get away with impunity.

In Germany you don't even need money to only get probation for such a deadly crash incident:

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&u=https:/...

To make sure we're on the same page, the grandparent is describing this as a positive part of living in Ukraine.

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