Apple is removing Rosetta from Macs during updates in certain countries | Hacker News Reader

Apple is removing Rosetta from Macs during updates in certain countries

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93 pointsGys42 comments

It looks like this is from pulling the strings from the binaries, there have not been any announcements and Rosetta hasn't actually been removed from anyone's Macs at this stage.

Microsoft faced legal threats from Intel over x86 emulation in Windows 10 ARM so this may be related to action, or possible action from Intel, or well, who knows? If there was actual legal action we'd probably know about it, but not if Apple had just received a threatening letter. It's worrying but not a real issue for now.

Yeah, my guess is they introduced the mechanism to disable it in some regions but aren't using it so far.

What region has stronger x86 licensing issues than the US? I'm not sure where else this would make sense.

If this is from Intel, many of us are in the biggest vendor lock-in ever, we need to get off asap.

Emulation has been a patent minefield going back 20+ years, there is a fairly good chance it's not due to Intel

They may be in negotiations with some patent holder or similar, and just preparing for the possibility that they have to. Adding the strings is a few steps removed from actually removing Rosetta, so the title is misleading.

However it halves the utility of M1 Macs for the next 3-4 years. It’s going to cost some sales to techies.

It hasn't halved anything yet as it hasn't happened.

No, if it happens it might reduce the utility of M1 Macs (or more likely hasten the release of ports), but right now it's just some strings.

“If I pull this trigger—” ... let’s not play a semantic game. The simple truth is that a portion (likely a very small portion) of the market for these devices will view this as too much additional risk. In addition to the numerous other than normal first generation new hardware risks, Apple’s ongoing public issues with software quality, concerns about longer term control over their hardware/computing devices... and many other risks both perceived and actual... these potential customers have decided that for their individual concerns the math didn’t add up. This is a concern, albeit a minor one at present because as you correctly said it’s just the strings... but for some that’s enough.

I mean, if this is due to some patent threat from Intel, then the company we should be wary of is them.

Apple gains nothing by “pulling the trigger”.

Sure, agreed on all points. I still think the title is misleading.

Only if you have no memory of IP litigation in recent times. I maintain it's a non negligible chance of it actually happening.

Edit: Here's a related example just from a few days ago for you:

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/03/intel-hit-with-2...

Non-negligible chance? Sure. But the title says “Apple is removing...”

Title's clickbaity. Doesn't minimize the danger.

Sipping my coffee this morning and planning to hit the Buy Button on a new M1 Mac Mini while I ponder how much RAM I really need ... and I just happen to read this.

I know its not actually removed but the fact they even made any provision to do it ... you don't write code for absurd things you know are never going to happen.

Not like I really needed a new machine anyhow I guess. Back to waiting for the things I use to get ported over I suppose. This is why we can't have Nice Things.

> Back to waiting for the things I use to get ported over I suppose. This is why we can't have Nice Things.

Exactly. Like I said before [0][1] I'm always interested in what Apple doesn't tell us when it comes to their new products like the M1 Macs, Apple Watches, AirPods, etc.

That's why it is better to wait for the hardware issues to be more stable and the software ecosystem to catch up and to just ignore the Apple early adopter hype trains.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26230801

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26159495

Funny you mention this - Im sitting here running an older version of Catalina on my newish MBP 16" because I finally jerked around with Bluetooth etc enough that my keyboard and mouse work reliably now (sure its an Apple BT keyboard but I still cant get it to work without being directly plugged in via cable). Not even mentioning the erratic behavior I saw related to my Samsung display that always worked great on my last MBP. I don't use excessive profanity on sitting down at my desk in the mornings now.

I use my machines to get things done and I'm actually too scared of losing a whole day because I took an OS update. What I have now kinda sucks but at least it works.

Wow. Based on a tweet, you estimated the likelihood of Apple disabling Rosetta in your region as high enough that the potential value of harm outweighs the benefits of a computer you had already decided to buy?

I’d wait to buy a computer that might stop supporting software I wanted to use.

Not exactly based on a tweet but absolutely based on the output of strings on the update itself. If I was an app developer running XCode as my main tool I'd feel differently but thats not the case for me.

I cant justify spending $900 + tax + shipping + Apple Care to end up with a problem I can't readily solve and thats the real issue.

For my needs, if it cant run Intel based binaries then its about as useful as a brick. Maybe they never do such a thing ... but if they do Im sitting on what amounts an expensive brick and not a damn thing I can do about it. By the time All The Things are ported to native M1 there will be an M2 for the same price as my old M1 that I never got any utility out of.

The Linux box it would replace runs fine for its purpose (20.04 LTS isn't too bad). Its only crime is that it doesn't fit in the otherwise Apple ecosystem I'm running with.

PLT: Always wait for version 2.

Apple has added strings in case they need to. Title is misleading.

It may happen. A company will not write code unless they think it's gonna be needed.

Agreed! Any code you write and ship increases potential bug footprint and for that reason less code is better. Even a lower testing footprint. Code never written cant malfunction on a customer device.

The fact they shipped something that appears to at least contain the messages indicating Rosetta has been removed seems to indicate theres code in there to do exactly that.

At best it's a negotiation tactic of saying "we already have code in the wild to remove the software should we be unable to arrive at a deal" - a kind of BATNA for Apple.

At worst its there to do exactly what it seems.

> Apple is removing Rosetta from Macs during updates in certain countries in Mac 11.3 beta 3.

In what countries? Did anyone see that happening on their machine? Or perhaps found details on how these strings are being used?

IIRC, Sony has lawsuit after remove boot to Linux in PS3.

Is it possible to file a lawsuit against Apple if consumer buy a product for Rosetta, but it is removed?

Well, considering that all anyone got out of that lawsuit was 60$, I'm honestly not sure it matters if you can sue them or not. Unless you are a class action lawyer, at least.

For those, like me, who are unfamiliar with Rosetta: its a dynamic binary instruction converter that allows applications to run on different hardware architectures. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosetta_(software)

Except they are not (at this point). This is a message in a beta, that has appeared in december 2020 as well.

Rosetta 2 has to be removed at some point, just like Rosetta 1 was.

Yes, but the only reason for this removal to be regionalised like the strings suggest is stupid crap like software patents.

> the only reason for this removal (...)

I'm not sure about that. For all we know this might be for an upcoming MacOS 11.99 that launches in 10 years when everything runs natively.

It would be useful to know when these strings are actually being used, everything else seems speculation.

Why would Apple be adding strings for such a change now?

I guess we could come up with a number of reasons; some unlikely, some very scary. My point was different, i.e. that nobody knows for sure yet.

I meant that that's the only reason for the strings to say "Rosetta is no longer available in this region".

True; thanks for explaining. Still, someone else [1] already suggested export restrictions. I guess we’ll see.

[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26331603

More likely export restrictions. Some types of software are blocked from export to Iran and North Korea.

What is Rosetta?

It's the emulation layer running on M1 equipped Macs and it allows the M1 chip architecture to run apps complied for the Intel chip architecture.

Removing it would render new M1 Macs unable to run older applications - and even brand new ones that are not specifically ported over to the M1 instruction set.

It's Intel chip emulation. Apple ditched Intel chips because it can emulate their instruction set with software instead. Intel losing market share and increasingly desperate - legal action not unthinkable.

Well, no updates for a while. Hopefully Apple doesn't pull a Microsoft and decide to update my machine while I sleep.

I hope they don't pull this off because my 2 week window to return my machine is gone and without Rosetta 2 my mac is just a brick.

Question. Is it possible to download Rosetta 2 from somewhere else that is not Apple servers?

I assume Rosetta 2 is downloaded as a .pkg installer on first use. Perhaps someone can capture the URL from network logs on a clean install. There might also be a way to find the files from the filesystem, if there is an "installer receipt" that lists what files were included in it.

Hopefully someone is able to look into this, as it probably isn't too difficult to do as an insurance policy.

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