NASA's Perseverance rover sends stunning images
bbc.com
bbc.com
Edit: added following links
This Q&A about storage https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/lpzbzo/were_scientist...
These Q&A about data rate https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/lpzbzo/were_scientist...
https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/lpzbzo/were_scientist...
This Q&A about RTG (operational life) https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/lpzbzo/were_scientist...
https://old.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/lpzbzo/were_scientist...
EDIT: Apparently the rover has an antenna that can directly communicate with Earth at 10 bits per second! That's obviously not useful for pictures or anything, but it's an amazing capability for emergency comms.
Right, assuming you are emitting infinite amount of photons, there are no obstructions, black holes and you ignore universe expansion and GR which can make your precise enough clocks go out of sync.
I think that the double slit experiment shows that this isn't an issue... Since we are summing with all other noise in the universe, it doesn't matter exactly which photons came from my transmitter, if any at all, but the total count will still (probabilistically) reflect the the we're after...
I would imagine signal-to-noise would be the limiting factor, ie how strong is your transmitter and how sensitive is your receiver.
Self-clocking signals are useful when the ambient noise level is low with respect to the signal, but if your signal is just "these two droplets in an ocean" you will not be able to filter out enough of the signal to detect the edges of the original signal.
Having a very reliable clock frequency means you can apply a very exact filter to lock on to the signal you want, thereby making the transmission less sensitive to interference from other radio signals. Just having a sensitive receiver isn't enough, because a sensitive receiver will also pick up more of the other radio signals.
If you use a self-clocking signal, then effectively the information you are sending consists of both the clock timings and the information you're really trying to send. If your channel capacity is very low, you will find there is no channel capacity for even the clocking information, let alone the information you really want to send.
There are a few orbiters around Mars. NASA appears to have an arrangement with the ESA to upload data from the rovers to the ESA's orbiters, depending on whose orbiters are within line of sight at any given time. Then the orbiter sends the information back to Earth, which are received by NASA's Deep Space Network
During the time when line of sight between Earth and Mars is blocked by Sol, there isn't any communication.
May interest you: https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/spacecraft/rover/communicatio...
Using bows and arrows as an example when you've got wonders of pretty advanced engineering like the Parthenon, plus they also had ballistae, chariots and catapults, so not the peak at all.
Not only that, but even the bows were more advanced, composite bows much more powerful than simple ones made of wood.
I'll start: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeolipile
In all seriousness, it's impressive what knowledge sharing and cooperation achieves.
They did not have internal combustion engines, or electricity, or the ability to machine parts to high tolerances, but ancient engineers cared deeply about efficiently transforming mechanical energy from one form to another.
https://www.quantamagazine.org/vint-cerfs-plan-for-building-...
The situation with Mars is different: the planet's close enough for reasonably good telescopic investigation from Earth, we've had landers on the planet for 50 years (the Soviet Mars 2 lander beat Viking by 5 years), high-resolution orbiters for ... nearly as long? And since 1996, rovers, which have transected paths of varying lengths exploring specific regions of the plant. We've got a very strong overview (something still not complete for Pluto --- New Horizons got detailed close views of only about 60% of the surface), and several very-high-detail pictures.
Astronomical time and distance are both huge relative to human scale. That we (or our robot agents) can cross the solar system in a decade or two is remarkable. A few months to Mars is nothing. The Earth was once as large or far larger (to us).
As a tangent, I remember a talk from Grady Booch where he put software cost in terms of mass that needed to be added to your rocket. So every new feature cost weight by requiring more chips and more fuel.
Not sure what the long term plan is for that hardware - I guess they can just do stuff more slowly on the main CPU if it gets fried by radiation. Or maybe being an FPGA the can just isolate the radiation affected regions over time and use the rest ?
Also some of the components are not rated for long term use. The microphones they installed will probably fail due to extreme temperature cycling. The helicopter is expected to last only 4 uses and anything beyond that is a bonus.
But yeah. It's not a problem if a CPU gets buggy or dies in a datacenter with 10K similar ones, because of redundancy and a completely different approach to software workloads nowadays. I mean a lot of production systems barely even care what CPU they run on.
And ~200 Mhz is still powerful enough for a LOT of applications.
They were also using Amigas until ~2006 for various duties, including launch control.
TLDR worth a listen
Why not record hours of what it sounds like to be on another planet? Even the sound recordings from decades ago on (I think Titan) was only a short creepy clip.
I understand it’s mostly going to be wind and interspliced with the robots sounds but I still don’t get how we don’t have hours of Mars already.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIAZWb9_si4
And Cassini flying into Saturn https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWHLCHv4PiI
I wonder what it sounds like to leave the atomosphere now too, I guess this is as close as we can get in the near future. Even with probes going 15km/s.
Some of the fuzzy photos remind me of the Sahara Desert when there was a little wind.
These are ENGINEERING cameras for taking incredibly precise measurements. Not for populating an Instagram page.
Holy shit, that rocks.
The winds and sand aren't mechanically very strong - the Martian atmosphere isn't dense enough to transmit much force even at high wind speeds. The only real dangers are obscuring the sun (important because Ingenuity runs on solar power) and getting dust in all kinds of places. But the landing site is pretty low latitude, and it's early in northern hemisphere spring right now, so power shouldn't be a problem.
Mars isn't quite as dead as the Moon, but still - you would be surprised how well things are preserved on dead rocks. As long as you can withstand the radiation and the cold, of course.
Many thanks.
Answer: Plutonium
It powers a Multi-Mission Radioisotope Thermoelectric Generator.
The plutonium decays at a few % per year, so that means it should be able to bring Elon a sandwich when he lands.
https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/spacecraft/rover/electrical-p...
The MMRTG is a cylinder 25" in diameter and 26" high, it's going to seriously impact space in your 'fridge. Plus it weighs nearly 100 lbs.
It outputs around 100W of power, which might be enough for a small refrigerator, but it also emits around 2000W of thermal energy, so your kitchen's going to get a little warm (probably a good thing in the winter, not so much in summer).
Though probably the biggest drawback is the cost -- the MMRTG costs around $100M to manufacture. The US Department of Energy makes the plutonium for it.
Not just the obvious ones (checking if you aren't selling plutonium or making a dirty bomb), but also health agencies (what if it leaks and someone eats it?), environmental agencies (what if it leaks and gets into groundwater?), child protective services (are you really storing nuclear material in reach of children?!), drug enforcement (are these parties near your "glo fridge" legal and above board?)...
On the bright side, as the joke goes, being on the radar of government agencies is a good way to deter criminals from robbing your house.
https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/spacecraft/rover/electrical-p...
The real reason you don't want an RTG powering your fridge is that it costs on the order of one million dollars per watt.
https://fas.org/sgp/othergov/doe/pu50yc.html
https://mjosefweber.medium.com/nasa-needs-plutonium-ea3bbaad...
It's hard enough getting rid of an old lead-cell battery.
If that shield fails for any reason, including tampering, you're looking at the radiological contamination and likely deaths of everyone nearby at the very least.
So the question stands and extends to include this: "why not?"
But it’s also hideously expensive. Plutonium is, apparently, one of the safer ways to build these things, because it is easy to shield, and the power density is good. But plutonium, as it’s not naturally occurring, is stratospherically expensive.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioisotope_thermoelectric_ge...
Note: With alpha emitters, it's 'safe' if it's outside your body, your skin can absorb it. But once you eat or inhale it, you get the full blast right into the quickest dividing cells in your body.
I wish I could say that’s a good thing. But no, after the first of them, nuclear weapons seem to have justified their own existence, no matter the cost.
I would rather see remaining weapons material repurposed as deep-space power sources. If that were to solve problems.
Anyhow, Perseverance makes me happy.
That is my basic opposition. Happy to be flexible on energy in almost every way. Cost, type, uptime...
But error with nuclear tech tends to endure for a very long time. Fukushima will be raising ocean radiation for a long time, just one example.
These are many lifetime events. Some minor, or recoverable, some profound.
Given we can reasonably run the fridge on solar, and other tech, that risk does not seem to make sense to a lot of people.
Doesn't to me.
Now, that said I am not ideologically opposed. Other tech could very seriously improve risk profile. Maybe it becomes worth it.
Then again, the fridge in my RV can run on a small flame, or a very low current source. And no moving parts!
So, we could make fridges differently too. Make tradeoffs.
Will it? The ocean is very, very big. Contaminated water from Fukushima is a literal drop in a bucket.
The main reason this are used vs (or sometimes along!) other technologies is that they function rather happily in super crappy conditions we don't -unless some world-ending event happens soonish- usually have on Earth.
There were terrestrial exceptions though, like "the Beta-M is a radioisotope thermoelectric generator (RTG) that was used in Soviet-era lighthouses and beacons." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta-M
But people happened across them and got radiation poisoning, so imagine that happening a lot more often if they were powering all manner of home appliance. Also a lot more dirty bombs.
https://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/fact-sheets/s...
There's probably a way to get a little more power out of it without being too dangerous. But then we'd have ordinary citizens buying things over-the-counter that could be abused in bulk. And I don't see any hassle being worth an extra free outlet or not replacing batteries.
(I don't know how much power the probes actually use, but anyway the wattage of the RTG itself is pretty close to the steady state power consumption of a fridge.)
I got to talk to one of the engineers who worked on KRUSTY[1] a 10kW nuclear reactor. This combined with some batteries for peak load could run pretty much any house for a couple of decades. (they talk about several houses in the article but realistically the peak load of a single house when the oven, refrigerator/freezer compressor, and central AC are running is a bit north of 10kW. I would seriously consider a way off grid ranch house if I could have one of these to power it :-)
[1] https://www.popularmechanics.com/space/moon-mars/a20127140/n...
RTGs are also large, too large to power a fridge given the power draw for a fridge. There were microRTGs used in some pacemakers, but the long term safety concerns were never overcome.
The decay rate is high enough that you'd need to augment or refuel your house every handful of years. Halflife of 87 years, 25% energy loss in 40ish, 10% loss in just over a decade, etc.
Also, they've got little plutonium pellets in them, which is both expensive and dangerous.
[0] https://www.thoughtco.com/what-is-most-expensive-element-606...).
[1] https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/earth-and-planetary-sci....
It is very unlikely that the production of Pu-238 would cost less to produce than the container and the apparatus that harvests the energy.
Let alone the issues with the waste products of U-234 hanging about in the kitchen or basement. If you think climate change is bad as is, add in what people will do when faced with surplus uranium waste removal costs.
Which is? Not cheap. And it's not like you can buy in any corner store.
And no, while an "economy of scale" would make it cheaper, it doesn't mean it would be cheap.
I would think the major use for them beyond space probes would be providing last resort backup power/heat for life support on outside earth orbit space habitats/crewed vehicles as the cost will still be at least $500/watt.
The current power structures in the world (petrodollar, etc) and world economy as a whole (massive employment within oil industry and throughout supply chains catering to oil industry) are too intertwined with the oil industry to allow any other technologies to swiftly disrupt that.
Stop mocking questions. It solves nothing.
Per https://www.wired.com/story/nasas-mars-rover-will-be-powered... we currently have a lab dedicated to producing it, and it makes 3.5 pounds per year.
Per https://www.npr.org/2011/11/08/141931325/the-plutonium-probl... the cost of getting the lab restarted was a bit shy of $100 million. And once running fully it costs millions of dollars to run.
At those cost points it would be cheaper to deliver you a brand new fridge each month for the next 20 years than to deliver you a single fridge using plutonium to run without external electricity for the same 20 years. Not to mention that the plutonium itself is toxic.
I suppose if we're looking for a Randall Munroe / "What If?" style explanation of why powering consumer equipment with plutonium is a bad idea, then it was the right question to ask.
But I thought all works created by the US federal government are public domain and not protected by copyright?
Famously the "Blue Marble" photo is not under copyright and reproduced all over the place: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blue_Marble
Also, whay are the images fairly low resolution compared to a phones camera. Does it have to do with image data transmission error?
Finally (then I'll shut up), when do we get to see the stereo images? I want to see these on my Vive.
1.) https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/multimedia/raw-images/NLE_000...
2.) https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/multimedia/raw-images/SI0_001...
https://mars.nasa.gov/news/8873/nasas-perseverance-rover-giv...
I'm not sure that data compression has progressed that much since Curiosity in 2012 or Insight in 2018. There have been some formats that have improved compression at the expense of large amounts of memory or processing power, but neither of those are abundant on a rad-hardened processor. Neither is electricity. Neither are the toolchains to process such images very widespread or as well understood.
If there were a future mission's requirement to send back lossy images first, and CPU power was significant, something like AVIF or JPEG-XL would likely be a candidate.
https://netflixtechblog.com/avif-for-next-generation-image-c...
ICER appears to be what they're using now for lossless: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICER
There are 2,000 "normal" sized images on the website [0]. If each of these was 1024x1024, they took 11 hours to compress. So Perseverance spends about 7% of its CPU time on image compression.
Page 36 from the PDF: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11214-020-00765-9
Are they being re-encoded into regular JPG files when being shown online?
Rad-hardened computer hardware is expensive and bulky. You don't add storage or processing power that you don't absolutely need.
See https://www.ontrack.com/en-us/blog/how-to-store-data-on-mars and https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/spacecraft/rover/brains/
One thing that changed in the last 8 years is that there are now two new orbiters around Mars (MAVEN and ExoMars TGO), which can retrieve data from the rovers faster, cache it and send it to Earth faster.
Totally uncompressed images are not a very efficient way to transmit images if you want to ensure they're scientifically accurate.
Question: Aren't those pictures actually in the public domain as they were produced by US government's agencies?
ref:https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/58BB/production/...
https://mars.nasa.gov/resources/25619/mastcam-z-looks-at-its...
Edit: I know Perseverance isn't going to those places, but something/someone will eventually....
What I find a little sad is that we seem incapable of doing this without leaving a particularly human signature wherever we go.
We arrived on Mars with jets of pollution https://mars.nasa.gov/resources/25672/black-and-white-smoke-... followed by the dumping of the two pieces of trash required to enable the landing.
For all the data we have gained, we have lost a pristine planet - which makes me wonder if we are doing this at the right time.
Cosmos and Mars, Sun whatever else was there long before us an will be still there long after us. From cosmic point of view humanity does not matter much.
From that 1000ft view humans and whatever we built is natural and not different than colony of ants. We are just sand grains that will be crushed when next big asteroid comes by.
Having pristine planet like Mars has no value besides human point of view "I want". Let alone planets are not pristine they are bombarded with space trash like asteroids all the time :)
Why do we use such anthropocentric view? It makes any difference if there is parachute on Mars? Pollution? Well we defined pollution because it is something we want to get rid of because it makes us sick. There is much more bad things for humans in space than you can count.
A pristine planet has value beyond 'I want this' IMO - it is an opportunity to perform experiments in an almost perfectly isolated test tube.
As a human, I also find it beautiful. As you say though, this is an anthropocentric view.
I expect Mars to be big enough that when we will have such instruments there still be a lot of stuff not touched to use those on.
Perhaps most impressive is the success of the terrain relative navigation. During descent a specific landing site was chosen, after going through atmospheric entry. That site had to be reachable based on where they ended up after entry, needed to be safe to land in, and should land as close as reasonable to scientifically interesting sites. The system chose a pixel from the initial images taken during descent, and the final landing was within 5m of that spot.
(A little more complicated than that of course. If I understand correctly, anything in blue was a candidate landing spot that it was free to select from. I'm pretty sure the header image is an artistic crop :) )
- From the unpublished short fiction of itbeho
Seriously though, this is fantastic. Imagine being a kid today, seeing these images and being inspired to help get us there in person, hopefully in the near future.
If they're taking photos for calibration, we get those, just like if they're taking stunning panoramas.
I honestly don't mind government sites, they are usually thoroughly boring and very conservative with their design, which means that even old people like my dad can click around and use it. I think that's a good thing.
Hopefully people learn how tiny our bubble is and protect our environment more. The Martian environment looks so boring -- as a replacement for polluted Earth. (We will pollute Mars faster than Earth).
I'm living at the ocean, trying to keep my vicinity free of garbage. Today I pulled out pair of trousers and some plastic bands out out water. Sometimes I'm having fights with my elderly village neighbors, who are burning household trash (paper, wood) on the ocean shore. I take their garbage out their hands and carry it to my home, later drive to the garbage processing center.
I’ve talked to fishermen in rural Thailand and they don’t have waste collection. So they take their trash every day and just dump it in the middle of the ocean somewhere. They didn’t understand why that was a problem when I discussed it with them.
The world won't change overnight, it won't immediately flip from the actions of one individual, or two, or even 1 thousand or 1 million. But that doesn't mean the action is pointless.
Change requires momentum, momentum requires the actions of an individual diligently living the change they want to see and sharing it with others. That sort of change builds slowly, often imperceptibly. But before you know it things begin actually changing. So no, this binary attitude of "You can't change everything by your actions so you may as well do nothing" is such an apathetic, cynical cop-out and I hate seeing it spouted everytime you see someone do something positive. As an idea it literally does nothing but harm and it has no value in being said.
Could the time spent taking the neighbors trash away be spent doing something even more impactful?
Is the interaction with these neighbors caring and educative, or antagonistic? In the latter case they're unlikely to emulate it or pass on the idea to others.
Do something good and do it consistently.
The reality is that the reason we do these things is to make ourselves feel better. Ah, yes, my daily shot of endorphins from recycling. Ah yes, my bumper sticker makes sure everyone knows I'm one of the good ones -- my social standing is safe.
This philosophy is why middle class first world kids pay thousands of dollars to go on missionary trips to build a single well in a far away village. Yes, you got dirty with the natives and did something.
I think it's all hollow. If you aren't making a real impact -- actually moving the needle -- you are doing nothing. It's just a vanity.
I believe in donating money to causes that have high impact. Given my skillset, I'm confident that's by far the best thing I can do. And aside from that, I don't sweat the small stuff. I have a keurig. Yep you heard right. Also donated enough to save a few lives from malaria. Exactly one of those facts about myself made any difference at all to the world.
Meanwhile western people see these masses of trash and plastic in the ocean and conclude the rational response is to ban straws in the western nations that do have effective waste disposal systems that don't consist of transporting said waste to the ocean and dumping it.
So the question is whether the outrage about ocean pollution is harnessed towards effectively addressing the problem or whether it is dissipated in the heat of pointless kabuki rituals that we do to absolve ourselves of guilt, even as the trash in the oceans piles up every time someone in the third world throws something away.
> While numerous international press reports have made reference to allegations that the majority of exports to Ghana are dumped, research by the US International Trade Commission found little evidence of unprocessed e-waste being shipped to Africa from the United States,[9] a finding corroborated by the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Memorial University, Arizona State University, UNEP, and other research.[10] In 2013, the original source of the allegation blaming foreign dumping for the material found in Agbogbloshie recanted, or rather stated it had never made the claim that 80% of US e-waste is exported.[11]
People who get outraged about it don't understand that due to cheaper wages and energy costs, plus the need for raw feedstock in the manufacturing countries it's actually a really decent system. It's a closed loop where plastic goods are produced in Asia and recyclable plastic returns on the same ship, it gets processed and keeps raw material prices low for continued use in manufacturing for export again. It doesn't just get shipped there and thrown in a river.
The real problem, especially in South East Asia is very much cultural, many assumed that societies would become more environmentally friendly as they got richer but that is not the case, they are polluting more than ever. It's incredibly common to see people throw rubbish on the ground despite being right next to a bin. Nearly every waterway is horrendously polluted with plastic consumer products.
It's an externality that the rest of the world must bear. The other poster here is on the money, nearly all of it comes from a few catchments.
Half the plastic in the ocean comes from 5 countries, all are in Asia.
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/09/asia-s-plastic-proble...
People often argue that we'll find a way to travel faster than light -- which is curious given how rarely people argue that we'll find a way to travel backwards in time.
Tardigrades seem like likely candidates, too.
The other solution is make it more profitable to collect and sell your garbage than to dispose of it. Which means it has to be worth it for a business to collect your trash from you. Better recycling and distribution technologies can enable this.
I dream of the day when businesses fight for the privilege of hauling away your trash. Maybe delivery drones could bring back garbage to make their return trips less, uh, wasteful.
I don't see how this is possible. At most, Mars might have small, organized colonies someday. Earth has billions of people.
https://mars.nasa.gov/resources/curiositys-1-8-billion-pixel...
Take the second one from that page, for instance, zoom in, and just take a screenshot and use it as your wallpaper.
* A low-bandwidth direct link to Earth (160bps-800bps depending on receiver dish- no, that's not a typo)
* A high-bandwidth link to orbiting satellites, which then forward traffic to Earth (~2Mbps for the rover->orbit hop, anywhere from 0.5-4Mbps for the orbit->Earth) .
I strongly suspect that the low-bandwidth telemetry signals - equivalent to the homemade reception from satellites I've heard of - are sent in the clear. Bandwidth is just too precious to waste.
I would not be surprised either way for the image data - on the one hand, computing power is relatively scarce, while on the other hand it already has to go through a compression pipeline.
That being said, I doubt that the transmissions are encrypted. Hell, I bet some amateurs with a very powerful transmitter might be able to transmit a software update and take control of the rover.
Scratching head why one would like to live on Mars ?
So wire the rover money after 2 years ? no wonder Elon is into Bitcoin
Plus during development its useful, and why would you change the platform you test when deploying to live?
My other thought is that I simply saw it wrong and there are no screws in the rover, just things that look like screws, nuts or bolts.
Any structural engineer around?
Here are the images:
Seemed kinda dumb to be looking for evidence of life without one. But there was a time when it was a big uphill battle even to get a camera on board: "no scientific value". That mistake was not repeated. Pictures always have surprises.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_2020
In government terms? That is nothing. We’ll burn that much on defective F-35 fighters in a year.
And we are not “just” assessing the mineral content of the soil—not even close.
https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/mission/science/
(If you’re that offended by the cost, I will Venmo you the 0.1 cents per year this is taking out of your tax bill.)
Except…NASA apparently spent all of $80 million on a helicopter that will work on Mars. One has to wonder what the military-industrial complex could accomplish with a bit of financial discipline and oversight.
Images, however, are the easiest thing for the lay public to grasp.
NASA needs artists and poetic photographers to capture inspiration on Mars if they want to snare the hearts of the public. What a waste of fortunes if they cannot do that.
If only the images were as great as the feat and engineering itself.