Bitcoin's monetary velocity is now higher than USD M1
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> Bitcoin`s velocity is calculated by dividing the 90 day estimated USD transaction volume by the 90 day average USD market cap. (This is the equivalent to the $BTC circulated divided by the Bitcoin money supply.)
... but this isn't how M1/M2 velocity are calculated. Those statistics effectively divide GDP by the money supply. In so doing, they only transactions related to production or consumption.
Purely financial transactions (e.g. buying a stock or bond or foreign currency) don't affect the statistical calculation of money velocity. However, these sorts of transactions make up the bulk of Bitcoin transactions, leading to a comparatively inflated transaction volume.
If you include foreign exchange transactions, then one 2019 estimate (https://www.bis.org/statistics/rpfx19_fx.htm) found about $6.6tn in global forex per day, of which the USD was on one side of about 88%. Call that $5tn/day to round down, giving a quarterly figure is about $300tn/quarter (at about 60 trading days per quarter), which is by itself about 16.5 times the current $18tn M1 money supply (https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/M1SL). That "forex velocity" is about an order of magnitude higher than the official M1 velocity.
Effectively, I don't think this chart is comparing apples to apples.
Mining Gold + having a mass of gold relates to Money
As
Mining bitcoin + Energy relates to Bitcoin
I would wager that most (90) of the bitcoin being traded now is old bitcoin that did not have the value that is current
What does that mean? You could say that about everything from real estate to gold to AMZN stock.
But 10 years ago you could buy a pizza for 10k btc and today that is equal to gdp of a small country. Does this not seem completely upside down? What I want to say is looking at all this numbers without perspective makes no sense...
Its closer to $715USD right now, after a 5:1 split last year, so $17->$3575 in 10 years. It has been traded on the public markets since.
10 years ago you could not buy a pizza for 10k btc. Laszlo choose to trade 10k BTC for a pizza, bootstrapping a value exchange on an experimental p2p software network. It was an adhoc tx, not done on a public market (which did not exist at the time).
I don't think it upside down. Assets can gain value over time, especially when you have inflation of the monetary base feeding into these assets, and a growing audience participating. Makes sense!
It'll just be too convenient to have a worldwide currency, and payment in that same currency. I estimate the final BTC ath to be at about 1M/BTC, to conveniently have 1 cent per Satoshi.
Having to really balance budgets instead of always having the possibility to print their way out may destabilize quite a few governments in the process
EDIT: can't post a reply because of the amount of downvotes (sorry if truth hurts!) but to comment on the very good analysis below by hellen__keller, the answer below by johnyzee that the size will increase in due time is the correct analysis. No need to increase the blocksize prematurely like BCH did. Wait until lightning or or other constraints make it necessary.
I think Blockstream will wait for an important milestone, like 200k USD to push for that change: this milestone will make it necessary too, if you want to let people move their exchange funds to their offline wallet.
Just do some quick math assuming 1k investment per person and you'll see a BTC at 200k with the same fees as now would swamp out this investment. So fees can't be kept constant until after the final ath is reached. And lowering the fees will reduce the miners gain, so it can't be postponed too much, otherwise that would destabilize the fine economic balance.
My bet is that the blocksize will be increased before the next halving, or the one after that, as soon as a nice milestone is reached. A nice round numbers will facilitate coordination.
Lightning is still settled on-chain. The most optimistic deployment of lightning would be one transaction on-chain to open a channel with your bank, and maybe one or two on-chain "update" transactions per month to true-up your channel liquidity, deposit a paycheck, etc.
Extrapolate to the size of the working population of just the united states, and we've already far exceeded the possible number of transactions that the blockchain can handle, putting aside the entire financial system that will also be settling major transactions on-chain, much less expecting the entire rest of the world to join in on the fun.
A simple truth: If crypto replaces fiat, the vast majority of transactions in the world will be done with crypto-backed IOUs ("crypto standard"). Publishing transactions on-chain will be reserved for the world's richest and most powerful institutions, because the rest of us can't afford the fees.
"Simple" changes to the bitcoin protocol aren't simple because it's a coordination problem. As long as more than 50% of mining power is behind the older protocol, the longest block history will remain under that protocol. Nodes which can switch will have incentives against doing so, because mining an embiggened block that does not become part of the official history orphans the mining reward.
From another perspective: any breaking change to the bitcoin protocol involves politely asking miners to execute a 51% attack on themselves.
It will all come down to whether miners think they can make more from having fewer higher fee txns vs. more lower fee txns in a block. My prediction is that more lower fee txns will win since competition from other cryptocurrencies will cap the txn fee that people are willing to pay.
Exactly my analysis too.
It's unclear to me what the financial incentive to run a full node is at all -- from what I'm reading, you don't need one to mine, and you don't get any reward just from running a node. So if it becomes expensive (20 TB hard drives, big pipe for bandwidth) to run a full node, who will want to do it? I suppose the exchanges would run some nodes, if only to keep the coins they trade in functioning.
"The current system where every user is a network node is not the intended configuration for large scale. That would be like every Usenet user runs their own NNTP server. The design supports letting users just be users. The more burden it is to run a node, the fewer nodes there will be. Those few nodes will be big server farms. The rest will be client nodes that only do transactions and don't generate."
6TB is absolutely nothing in terms of storage. That is close to a single consumer device today, notwithstanding that storage is dropping in price constantly. For datacenters you could increase this by orders of magnitude and nobody would bat an eyelid.
The primary incentive structure of Bitcoin is to incentivize holders to discredit anything but bullish information.
I.e. Bitcoin’s real danger is the cognitive bias it creates in the minds of the holders.
To be more clear, I'm retired, with enough stupid cash to not care anymore, and just a enough XMR to buy stuff if needed.
I'm trying to push more people to XMR actually. That's the future
Thought the risk if printing money is always there, it's much much worse to have zero monetary policy implied with a fixed currency. A 'super hard' currency (i.e. 1 USD = 0.001 grams of Gold, without even fractional lending) would destroy the economy quickly.
Currency is not a store of value it's a medium of exchange.
As the economy expands it needs 'more currency' like more oil on a bigger engine. Hard currency starves the engine.
Also, the first external shock (covid, war) will wipe out the economy because the panic to fixed currency will shut everything down.
So we want monetary policy.
If you want a longer term store of value, put your money into something.
2) It is not convenient to have a 'worldwide currency', it's totally the opposite.
Currencies exist to facilitate exchange within an economy. Usually currencies map to markets. The bigger the market, the less monetary policy can help in regions. This is one of they key problems with the Euor right now - France/Italy/Span etc. have completely differing views as to 'what to do with monetary policy' than Germany/Netherlands/Sweden. The default 'strict' nature of Euro is actually hurting Spain and Italy quite a lot. They cannot restructure their economies fast enough (i.e. lowering wages is impossible) vis-a-vis Germany ... so the jobs go to Germany.
Normally, the reduction of competitive ability of Spain would be instantly resolved by lower value of their currency. Every Spandiards iPhone just got more expensive, but that would be an accurate reflection of their economy.
A 'global currency' is nonsensical, because where can one trade those currency units for value - if everyone is using national currencies, then the value of said 'global currency' is irrelevant other than in terms of the local economy you want to buy stuff from.
If every country in the world 'used the same currency' then it'd have to be 'very strict' meaning 'no monetary policy for anyone' meaning massive problems.
Put another way: when the US trades a lot of 'stuff' with China - there is absolutely no way for those two nations to avoid having to hold some kind of credit from that other nation. Be it RMB or USD or whatever.
There is no way around that problem. Magically putting trade deficits in some magical 'global currency' just papers over the problem, it does nothing.
So no - a 'global currency' does not help anything, because you can't imaginary wish away the underling credit or debt that various economies 'owe' each other.
Finally - it's possible that some kind of international instrument arose that was backed by real assets - for example a 'World Bank Dollar' that was properly managed and backed by real-estate or some kind of measurable commodity value. Now that just might work - the problem there is that the scale necessary of assets would just be too much. And of course, there is no institution that we trust, internationally.
So no, BTC does not solve any problems at all.
If you define the problems away, certainly!
But look at the logical coordination: your point #2 depends on point #1 being true. Remove the belief in monetary policy and it all falls into place.
> the panic to fixed currency will shut everything down
It's an opinion. Lots of people think the deflationary incentives built in are bad for the economy. Another alternative view is to look at all the busywork (extraction and wastage of resource) that happens because of our current system: far fewer turkeys will be allowed to fly with a crypto that just can't be inflated.
You may still argue for expansation during demand crisis (another opinion). A government could still obey Keynesian prescriptions with BTC as the world currency: however, it would have to balance things out by building tax revenue during happy years, to spend it away on sad years - with a hard limit.
That "small detail" of an hard limit will certainly change a lot of things: the government will have to tax/steal/confiscate what it can't wish into existence (or print).
It doesn't change much in practice, but it will be quite fun to watch! I think it will be the end of social democracy!
> And of course, there is no institution that we trust, internationally.
... now let me tell you about trustless and crypto :)
There is 100% chance of economic calamity if there is an external shock.
You can tie your boat to the dock with rope (flexible) or you can use boards and nail them to the dock and the boat (inflexible). As long as the boat stays in the same place, the planks are probably better than rope. But the moment the tide comes in or leaves (i.e. cycles in the economy) or a big wave hits (existential shock) - your planks are going to break and the ship will be wayward.
It is not an 'opinion' that as an economy expands, it needs 'more currency' or else prices get weird and the entire point of the currency fails.
And yes, as I said straight off in my comments, currency debasement is a legit problem.
As for 'trusting crypto' - it's pointless because BTC 'numbers' are completely worthless.
I would rather trust the a poorly managed 'World Bank Dollar' that maps 'Global Dollars' to assets in some roughly transparent way, then a 'distributed network of numbers' - which is basically ridiculous.
Bitcoin is a neat idea, worthy of experimentation, but most of the Bitcoin people a) don't understand currency or b) are on some level of the Ponzi koolaid latter or both.
Finally, none of this is to say that BTC won't take hold. If enough people want to use it for whatever, it will be used for that whatever. That doesn't mean it makes any sense, but we do a lot of things in this world that make no sense.
fair enough
> There is 100% chance of economic calamity if there is an external shock.
It was only in 1929 that things got serious, and a lot of people believe the government wanton destructions of goods and forced price policy only made the crisis longer.
Personally, I believe it was due to technological progress: before, governments couldn't easily enforce their will due to lack of efficient long distance communications, organized police forces, etc.
> else prices get weird
That's for sure, but it remains to be seen how much of a problem this "weirdness" could be, with modern technology (like electronic labels)
> I would rather trust the a poorly managed 'World Bank Dollar' that maps 'Global Dollars' to assets in some roughly transparent way, then a 'distributed network of numbers' - which is basically ridiculous
So far in your arguments I have mostly noticed opinions, which are plausible and debatable.
However, this is plain wrong. Value does not come from an external authority (when it attempts to, Gresham law applies!) but from a coordinated opinion at the society level.
US Dollars are worth keeping in Argentina not because of the US military might, or the Argentinian goverment orders (which does everything it can to limit dollarization) but because people seems to agree that it does a good job in being both a unit of account and a store of value.
Eventually, people will learn to skip the middleman. This is what's already happening in India and even more so in Nigeria: look at how the remittances seen by the regular banking sector shrunk to nothing, and how these governments are now attacking crypto.
I think it proves most people do not share your trust in systems.
This is why I follow with great interest the robinhood/gamestop saga: when these idle hands will realize the game is crooked, they will move to crypto. They will start noticing interesting profits, and it will be the beginning of the end for the existing fiat system.
The pandemic, causing boredom and excess cash, is certainly precipitating the outcome.
> Finally, none of this is to say that BTC won't take hold. If enough people want to use it for whatever, it will be used for that whatever
And you are totally correct. I try to limit my discussions with nocoiners on HN (it's sterile), except to understand their arguments.
Your argumentation is more solid that most people, but based on opinions (inflation is good, monetary policy is good) that may not withstand the passing of time and technological changes.
If you do not want to accept USD for reasons relating to 'trust' then there is no way to effectively exchange with the US economy - other than by using something else that has value. Like maybe Oil. (FYI if the US was small, you could use the currency of a different nation).
It has nothing to do with armies, power, or even really the petro dollar.
Crypto solves absolutely nothing - there is not a single benefit to anything related to BTC, other than experimental value.
There is no rationality whatsoever in a convention of regarding the 'exchange of numbers'.
The 'way forward' is to build systems with integrity, because we depend on them - there is no avoiding the fact we need a credible Medical system, Justice system, Monetary system, Regulatory system etc.
The 'libertarian/trustless' notion behind BTC is without foundation, it's completely irrational.
If Argentinians want to trade with Americans then they have to qualify the value of that trade with how much they 'trust' Americans and their system and there is no way around that.
Except trustless systems
> If you do not want to accept USD for reasons relating to 'trust' then there is no way to effectively exchange with the US economy
You may not be familiar with how some people pay with Tide :)
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/03/why-are...
https://nymag.com/news/features/tide-detergent-drugs-2013-1/
From the article:
> male addicts whose need to feed their habits can foster a kind of innovative streak. “They are smart. They are creative.
This is the right attitude: not underestimating people, but realizing all humans are extremely smart and creative when push come to shove.
> Crypto solves absolutely nothing - there is not a single benefit to anything related to BTC, other than experimental value
Well, I'm retired. So are others. People buy stuff easily on the darknet. People can store value without fear of deflation. I see a lot benefits personally!
You may dislike that some shady people got crazy rich - but they seem to like it. Ultimately, if you never took any risk and made sure to always follow all the laws and the government recommendations (buy insurance! etc.), you have condemned yourself to be working class at best. There are different degrees of shiny - you can work at a FANG, but if you need to work, you are working class.
So be careful with what you say about them, as you may end up working for these people :)
> The 'way forward' is to build systems with integrity, because we depend on them - there is no avoiding the fact we need a credible Medical system, Justice system, Monetary system, Regulatory system etc
Sorry, but there is! When I need healthcare, I don't use the overpriced and bad quality US health system - I travel. For the monetary system, I may convert back some significant percentage in crypto before the next bullrun if I fear inflation. For the regulatory system, I shop around - it's likewise for everything: people adapt!
Just look at the flow of illegal immigrants demonstrating with their feet that they do not depend on the country they were born!
> The 'libertarian/trustless' notion behind BTC is without foundation, it's completely irrational.
Whenever I see lots of people engaging in a behavior I consider "irrational", I question my understanding of their situation, not their rationality :)
> If Argentinians want to trade with Americans then they have to qualify the value of that trade
You misunderstand the role of USD in Argentina or other places- local people use it as a store of value to trade with other local people. The US is not involved - except for printing the dollar bills. This is the process of dollarization, when something else is used instead of the local official currency.
In prisons, there is an official system in place, with grossly inflated prices - but cigarettes are used to trade.
Would it be more clear if each countries 'currency' were instead called something like US credits, Spain credits, etc. and that each country could issue new credits at will?
Part of me is concerned that the system works right now simply because much of the populace thinks that their nation's currency is a safe and stable store of value and not a form of credit at all and thus are much more willing to hold it than they otherwise would be.
First - currency is not a store of value, it's just a means to facilitate exchange.
If you have more than a few thousand dollars, and want to store it for a while you can literally ask the teller at your bank and they, in their most absolute basic form of financial counsel will offer you some alternatives like long-term bonds with better yield. Or you can buy real estate or whatever.
As far as 'transparency' - it's more 'understanding'. The proles don't need to know, in fact few people need to know.
The issue of 'credit' is more or less between regimes, not between people within an economy. USDs held by China are IOUs, but that's a little less relevant when Canadians are trading CDN dollars among one another.
But it doesn't matter, regular people don't need to understand, just like they don't need to understand what mRNA is.
'Stores of Value' just really are not a problem for the proles, and frankly, once they have a little bit of money there are plenty of financial options for them. If they have a lot of money, there are people that can advise them.
We need to have monetary policy and we need it to be done well - there is absolutely no magical equation that can solve that problem for us - the notion of 'distributed currency' doesn't provide anything.
We need competency in our justice system, our medical system, in our regulatory apparatus, in municipal works etc. - the Central Bank is no different - it needs to be managed responsibly and there's no way around it.
Some people think BTC would work for developing nations i.e. the 'unbanked' masses, in areas with bad banks or shady central banks. I suggest that BTC would be bad in almost every way: it's impossible for people to use directly, they would need some kind of 'exchange' at minimum, which would have to be regulated, at which point -> just have a bank account (!) denominated in some respectable currency and that's that. Literally Bank of America could bank Nigerians if need be over their SMS. That would be much better than BTC.
Crtypo may have some value for digitizing national currencies ... but blockchain itself probably provides no value at all.
Don't underestimate people
> Some people think BTC would work for developing nations i.e. the 'unbanked' masses, in areas with bad banks or shady central banks. I suggest that BTC would be bad in almost every way: it's impossible for people to use directly
There is no technical impossibility. It's just rarely done, but there are more and more places pricing in crypto. Eventually, the extra degree of indirection that is caused by fiat will become an inconvenience.
> they would need some kind of 'exchange' at minimum, which would have to be regulated, at which point -> just have a bank account (!) denominated in some respectable currency
Or altenatively, they can decide to skip the middleman: if the workers store their value in currency A, it becomes more interesting for them to buy goods denominated in the same currency A than to bother exchanging for some local stuff B of unknown (and probably rapidly falling) value.
This process where a store of value becomes a unit of exchange is called dollarization, and is well studied. See also the use of cigarettes in prison.
Goverments don't like that - just because their interests are not aligned with their citizens.
I think if it were that convenient then we'd already have a worldwide currency. We don't because it really doesn't solve many problems and there are a lot of reasons states want control of their own currency.
If I were you, I'd question whether the states interest are always aligned with their citizen interests