Two days with Volkswagen’s electric ID.4 | Hacker News Reader

Two days with Volkswagen’s electric ID.4

arstechnica.com

95 pointsfeross153 comments

Love VW, smog scandals aside, but is silly to mention the ID.4 and the Beetle together. The latter is arguably the most important car ever made and had a multi-decade run as such. The other may be a decent selling electric, and is certainly important to VW, but it is a tax break away from being the same price as the Model Y.

The real "Beetle of EVs" will be something that is priced down around the Honda Civic, Mazda 3, etc. AUD$30k (~USD$20k) or so. The first major brand to come out with an EV comparable to that class of car, with local warranty/servicing/etc, just like the Beetle was then or the Civic/3/Golf are now, will be the one that gets true adoption. Until then it's just a "rich person's toy".

I am _really_ hoping the ID 3 will be roughly the cost of a GTI, but it's looking more like the cost of a Golf R.

Oh well, maybe in a few more years.

For all the counter-culture nostalgia, the Beetle was mostly about being cheap. And, of yeah, somewhat by being fairly unsafe even relative to the fairly lax standards of the time.Furthermore, depending on one's situation an EV is often a second car at this point unless you don't really need to get out of charger range or are willing to rent when you do.

Yep. My Mom, like many others of her era, bought one as a first car because it was cheap enough. Given some stories, it's build quality was not the greatest but it kept going.

> an EV is often a second car at this point unless you don't really need to get out of charger range or are willing to rent when you do.

That seems to be a cultural point. For many people I see an EV is actually beneficial over a fossil fuel car: They don't have to go to the gas station ever. Saving that detour every now and then, but simply commute and do the groceries. Longer trips aren't done by car anyways. But that of course requires a garage with power, which many in the cities don't have ...

The sticking point for me is the in-between trips of 200-300 miles. We live ~80 miles from the coast and ~100 miles from the mountains. Depending on the specifics of the trip, add another 20 miles each way for local roads to a specific trailhead or beach.

If there were charge points at my destination, I wouldn't think twice. Since there aren't and really aren't any along the way (maybe one or two chargers for either trip) range anxiety is real. For us, a gas car is a must but an electric will probably be our next "second" car. Of course, we may just forego the second car altogether and stick to one vehicle instead.

Here in Poland, if you charged at a charging station, it would cost you twice MORE than refueling a classic HEV, and it would also take longer - so overall less convenient. If you don't plan to charge it mostly at home, it will never pay off.

We sold both of our gas cars and got Tesla (don’t need two cars right now). We are doing more road trips (1k miles or more) right now than ever. Teslas are awesome on long drives (mainly due to autopilot).

In a perfect world the 2nd generation Volt would have been the Beetle of EVs

People who don't understand ICEs go "Worst of both worlds!!!! EV and ICE reliability problems!!!"

ICEs can be insanely efficient when operating at peak efficiency and incredibly reliable with low power demands

Volt maintenance was actually less involved than Tesla's with their required yearly service.

exactly, cars as far i can see are going downhill (perhaps not literally). I fail to understand how anyone can genuinely see EV as a viable alternative to ICE when they cost so much and are inferior to IC by almost every metric that matters. (i think tesla model y is an amazing car, just severely hamstrung)

What are those metrics they’re inferior on? Model Y seems like an amazing car, period.

um... Range? Charging time, power to weight, range, cost, also range. Those are the most important things i look for in a car.

If you need a cheap economy car OR travel extreme distances every day OR if you routinely drive at speeds in excess of 150km/h (90mph) OR if you are unable to charge at home, then electric is probably not going to be for you any time soon. But for everyone else, electric wins your categories.

Charging time: ICE cars take about 5 to 10 minutes to detour to a fuelling station. Electric cars take about 5 to 10 seconds to plug in when you arrive at home.

Power-to-weight: Due to instant torque, most modern electric cars feel a lot faster than their numbers suggest. But sure, if you're in the market for an MX-5, pure electric isn't for you.

Cost: You care about power-to-weight so you're clearly not interested in economy cars. If you want high performance and good range, Tesla models tend to be excellent value relative to their 0–100 times. For most people, cost is still quite high, but this is a relatively short-term problem which will solve itself as manufacturing capacity scales up.

Range: Unlike ICE cars, you wake up every morning with a 'full' electric car. The latest models from VW, Tesla etc have ample range for most people. Unless you spend more than half your day on the road, this isn't a concern.

Power to weight ratio is pretty great, no? The acceleration times in the usable speed ranges seems to imply that, at least. I agree that the cost is on the high side, but in terms of utility, it seems pretty great - excellent cargo space, optional 7 seats in a small car for when you really need to carry a couple more, panoramic glass roof. And in terms of charging time, for anyone with the ability to charge at hom, I expect that the lifetime sum of total time spent waiting for a charge will be a good bit lower than time spent navigating to and sitting at gas stations, since you’re not waiting for it while it’s charging overnight.

Added weight is an underappreciated problem. Heavier cars mean more tire wear. More tire wear means more pollutants --going back to natural rubber isn't an option either...

> Heavier cars mean more tire wear. More tire wear means more pollutants

As if the tiny amount of additional tire wear is going to create as much pollution as burning petrol and keeping the engine lubricated with oil.

EVs tend to use the brakes less and of course there are no pollutants from combustion. I'd really like to see an indepth comparison of how much pollutants EVs produce locally vs. ICEs.

I traded in an Audi TTS for my Tesla Model 3 Performance. The Model 3 has better range (300 miles vs. 200), faster charge time for my use case (I plug it in overnight and never have to visit a gas station), better performance, more storage capacity and a vastly superior media/navigation system. The Audi had a nicer steering wheel and slightly nicer seats. I loved my Audi but the Model 3 is better in almost every way. No contest.

An ice car with only 200 mile range? I don't think I have ever had a car with so little range in 45 years of driving. And that includes a petrol 5 litre V8 Chevy van. My 2015 Tesla S 70D does about that.

When you are bitching about EVs and start talking power to weight ratios... it's clear you haven't done your homework. My Model Y is easily the best car I've ever driven in terms of performance, and I didn't even pony up for the fast one.

It takes me 10 seconds to charge on my way into the house so no stop at the gas station.

Range is better than the VW I used to drive, not as good as my Subaru so I'd call it a push. I haven't done any long trips where I really try to nurse the gas so it's hard to say exactly where it lands though.

At a supercharger station, it costs $20 to "Fill the tank", at home, it's half that. But I guess cheap as hell to run isn't in your metrics.

Against other EVs Tesla wins in all of those, although some people are confused by the up front cost and are ignorant about how the car saves you money.

Against ICE, some ICE cars have longer range but it’s not any kind of issue as long as you are in the developed world since the charging networks are so great and only getting better.

The article says at 11 kW it charges in 7.5 hours. That's $7.75 worth of electricity for me. Gasoline over the last year has averaged $2.56/gallon for me.

The article says it gets 250 miles on a charge. To get 250 miles from an ICE car on $7.75 worth of gasoline, that ICE car would need to get 82.6 miles/gallon.

The EV should also require much less routine maintenance than an ICE car.

For a heck of a lot of people, fuel cost per mile and the amount and cost of routine maintenance are among the most important metrics.

depends on how you use your car. Lots of the cost benefits will be swallowed up by the higher price tag. Also, for any long distance driving, you will need to hire an ICE. I think its an objective fact that electric cars still have a very long way to catch up.

> Also, for any long distance driving, you will need to hire an ICE

Why? There are many CCS DC chargers in the world and the number is growing month-by-month. It's true that some areas aren't built out yet, but many areas already are and new chargers are going in all the time.

Try out some road trips with a VW ID.4 on A Better Routeplanner. See how you go:

https://abetterrouteplanner.com/

If you assume using public chargers, then the cost-per-mile calculation needs to be updated, because electricity prices at the charging stations are much higher than the cost of electricity at home. Here where I live, in Poland, the difference can be up to 3 times. In this case HEV is actually much cheaper to run than an EV.

It's objective fact that it will take a lot of improvement before an electric car is equivalent or better in every way. But that's not a very fair standard for "catching up".

The only thing fossil cars have remaining is range and charging speed and I suspect is only a few years to go. Everything else is in another league.

Meeting range and price at the same time is going to be pretty difficult for a while.

And the ever lacking charging infrastructure in the cities.

Where I live in Europe all who own cars in the city have them street parked in front or around their apartment buildigs.

How will they all be charged if everyone would switch to electric?

Plaster all the streets or sidewalks with charging stations?

How will the existing power lines handle the extra strain? (Spoiler alert: they can't)

Who will pay for building and maintaining all this new charging infrastructure?

These are concerns that are somehow never considered yet they're the main bottlenecks for the future of mass EV adoption in the cities.

How well do the batteries hold up in cold weather? I live where it gets pretty cold and I worry about shrinking range, especially when using the heater.

>for any long distance driving, you will need to hire an ICE.

Either you are ignorant and unjustifiably overconfident in your opinions,

- or -

I am living in a simulation and the many long road trips I have done in an EV have all just been an illusion.

Most probably i am ignorant and unjustifiably overconfident. I shall have to humbly reconsider my position.

Yes, cost of ownership (unpredicted or not) ought to be much lower with an EV. I’d love to finally move to electric but my personal main problem is that it only really looks like a viable option where I live for house owners due to lack of infrastructure for the many, many people living in apartments.

If you pay $17,000 more fore the electric car, it would take many years to pay for itself... maybe too many.

Maybe the battery would need to get replaced by then...

Number of times I've taken my car over 200 miles in a single day in the last decade: 3.

What range problems?

You honestly haven't done a 2 hour drive to a hiking/biking/winery destination more than 3 times in 10(!!) years?

I live in the pacific northwest.

30 minutes to all those places. :)

Heck a good electric bike can get me to half of them.

I go camping yearly but normally with my friend who takes his minivan. Even then only 1 of the trips has been over 200 miles away.

Seattle is awesome for a number of reasons, half of those reasons involve how close Seattle is to outdoor activities.

When on vacation using a rental I've driven way over 250 miles at a time, but I'm not counting that against use cases for my primary vehicle.

I’ve driven 10,000 miles since Christmas, just for fun/recreation.

So 155 per day on average?

Fair that you wouldn't want a 200 mile range, but either 250 or 300 miles of range could serve you pretty well!

I think you are an outlier.

But that’s the wrong argument when electric cars are perfectly capable of taking long road trips, if you choose one with a good fast charging network.

I’m pretty ignorant of electric cars, but are you saying that different cars have different charging networks? There isn’t something standardized like with gas stations? Or do you mean that charging stations can charge whatever, because they support different types like we currently do at gas stations regarding diesel vs gasoline as well as different octane ratings? The former sounds incredibly wasteful. The latter isn’t that bad I guess.

> inferior to IC by almost every metric that matters.

??? Maybe you've missed the memo?

Acceleration? EVs win.

Cabin Noise? EVs win.

Maintenance? EVs win.

Cost of driving? EVs win.

ICE vehicles win in exactly 1 scenario: Being able to fuel up quickly on road trips greater than 300 miles.

Driving characteristics are an argument for the sporty drivers as well.

Elon said the Model 3 would be quicker than a BMW M3 and have better handling. He said it would "beat anything in it's class on the track"

Not content to believe him, Top Gear put it to the test. See for yourself:

https://www.topgear.com/videos/top-gear-tv/tesla-model-3-vs-...

(Also, the Performance Model 3 had an over the air update to make it faster since this was filmed, and added track mode)

That's a fun video. Notably, I think every one of the cars it's pitted against cost much more than the Tesla. So this idea that Teslas are expensive compared to their peers doesn't hold water. The Mercedes that beat it in the 1/2 mile cost a whopping $160k and none of the other cars were even close in the quarter mile.

The Mercedes AMG C 63 S costs USD $76,200 (MSRP) in the US according to https://www.mbusa.com/en/vehicles/model/c-class/sedan/c63ws

I got the impression they weren't racing the base model, but you are spot on.

Regardless. It's still $20k more expensive than the Model 3 Performance it was against.

I believe that without doubt. I'm more referring to the organic nature of an ICE. You have the noises, the vibrations and power delivery curve and manual shifting. Regarding spreadsheet specs, an electric vehicle is better in almost every aspect. But in emotional value I believe there is still a tiny spot reserved for ICEs

So an ICE is better than electric in much the same sense that a horse is better than an ICE.

I think that's a fair comparison, indeed.

> But in emotional value I believe there is still a tiny spot reserved for ICEs

It is indeed tiny. People like to hear car engines rev at a car show or race track. Most of those same people don't want to have anything to do with those same sounds in their daily driver. Car manufacturers spend billions isolating the driver and the passengers from engine noises, vibrations, and in particular smells.

Initial price tag: ICEs and HEVs win by a large margin

Acceleration: depends, not all EVs are Teslas; additionally this is a moot point, because we're not comparing race cars, and you'd be blocked by traffic anyways most of the time. You also won't save any time from faster accelerating, because you'll lose a lot more for charging.

Cabin noise: only in city driving, on highway most of noise comes from road and wind; HEVs are almost as good in city driving, because of driven carefully they use ICE only while accelerating.

Cost of driving: debatable, depends on the world region and electricity prices; the cost of driving 100km is lower in a HEV or diesel than an EV charged from a public fast-charger, at least in many regions of Europe

Initial price tag doesn't matter as much as you might think. Most people lease their cars, they will be trading off extra costs on the lease for lower fuel costs.

As I said, lower fuel costs is quite debatable and heavily depends on the region and what you will use the car for. If you can't charge it at home like many people living in dense city areas, or if you drive long distances, then you'll have to use public chargers which are much more expensive. Initially in Poland when almost nobody had EVs these chargers were free, now they are 2x-6x more expensive than charging at home and in this case ICEs are actually cheaper.

If you drive short distances only and you do have a garage, then charging at home will work for you, but then you might not get high enough mileage to offset the initial price difference.

Additionally the deprecation is higher on EVs (probably due to concerns about the battery durability) so that would be also included in the lease.

Poland does seem to be a laggard on EV's, I seem to remember reading that the UK has thirty times as many public charging points as Poland.

Correct. But isn't there also 30x more EVs?

Isn't it true that a lot of 2nd hand cars migrate from Western Europe to Eastern Europe. I wonder if you will always lag behind because of this.

Minor correction: Poland is not Eastern Europe.

Also correlation is not causation. Generally eastern countries of former Soviet Union are poorer than western ones. EVs are more expensive than traditional cars, so obviously fewer people can afford.

Another reason is politics. At least in Poland, there are no subsidies for EVs. EVs need to compete directly with ICE cars, but it is hard to do so when they are 30% more expensive. You need to really drive a lot to get back 30% in gasoline savings.

Is Poland in Central Europe?

I'm curious, not trying to start an argument.

That's the nowadays common association, yes.

Yeah, currently the experience with an EV varies greatly based on locale. Some of this will remain indefinitely—there will likely always be homes where parking with chargers is unavailable. Some of it depends on infrastructure investment.

> Additionally the deprecation is higher on EVs (probably due to concerns about the battery durability) so that would be also included in the lease.

Teslas retain their value exceptionally well.

Sure but this is almost entirely due to the cost of batteries which are steadily coming down in price. How much longer do you think ICE being cheaper will last? My view is, once Musk gets his 4680 battery factories up to speed it'll be all over for ICE. Call it five years max.

This, but also faster charging and abundance of chargers is needed. I can drive an ICEV / HEV / PHEV anywhere in Europe and refueling is no problem. I can't do that with an EV. And even if I find a charging station, it might be all busy and then what - go to another one or just wait half an hour or more until someone finishes charging.

EVs will have cheaper up-front costs within 3 years for a in-city car, and by 2030 for longer-range models, according to most honest research.

They are already cheaper for TCO, unless you add the artificial constraint that it is only charged at a “public fast-charger...in Europe.”

Biggest issue is cost of level 2 home chargers and apartment resident charging.

https://theicct.org/sites/default/files/publications/EV_cost...

> Initial price tag: ICEs and HEVs win by a large margin

Teslas compete quite well in terms of features and performance with other cars in its price range. If you aren't looking for a high performance car with luxury affordances, then you are out of luck. But if you are shopping for a $40k+ car, the Teslas compete quite well.

Tesla has been rapidly stealing market share from BMW, Mercedes, and other luxury brands for the past few years. This is why over the past 3 years ICE manufacturers are suddenly taking EVs far more seriously. As Tesla has moved down-market, they've stolen share at every step.

With the Cybertruck and Tesla's coming $25k car coming down the pike, they are going to have cars in most every market in the US. And the Cybertruck is price and feature competitive with other 4 door trucks.

If the rumors that the US is going to restore subsidies for Tesla, then thing will turn quite lopsided against ICE vehicles quickly.

> Cabin noise: only in city driving, on highway most of noise comes from road and wind;

Luxury cars which are as expensive as the Tesla have done a tremendous job isolating the engine noises. But you are claiming ICE cars are quiet and "win by a large margin" on price, and in that category, things aren't even close. As soon as the grade gets over 5% or you need to pass, the 4 banger in that $30k Civic is making itself known.

> the cost of driving 100km is lower in a HEV or diesel

I love how EVs have to compete favorably against every aspect of every non EV. Diesels and HEVs are not much less expensive than EVs. Diesels are particularly loud.

EVs are obviously far more interesting when you can charge them at home at lower power rates. That said, here in the states anyhow, charging my Tesla from 0 to 100% at a Supercharger costs less than half what it costs to fill my Subaru for a similar amount of milage.

Fair point about Tesla. Basically you have to pay a lot for a car with such performance, so the price of battery vs the price of a powerful enough really big ICE is attractive. But that's still a niche of the market, most people don't buy cars in this price range. Tesla might have premium performance and nice handling but is still not comparable to established luxury brands in other areas like quality of assembly and materials, so it is not 100% fair comparing the price.

> Diesels and HEVs are not much less expensive than EVs.

Not yet, at least not in Europe. HEVs are very close to ICEVs now, particularly when comparing to a car with automatic transmission or a diesel. But EVs of the same make are typically 30%-50% more expensive, if not additionally donated by government programs or not getting any preferred taxation. That's why they got popular more in countries that offered big donations / tax discounts (e.g. Norway).

Example: 2021 Hyundai Ionic Hybrid costs $24k, but a fully electric version starts at $33k. That's over 30% more. I could buy gasoline for over 15 years of driving for that.

I think fundamentally ICE vehicles have lots more choice right now. Tesla only competes in a few small segments.

At the price points they are competing in, Tesla has a competitive price offering (particularly if you are looking for performance). But there is a huge price umbrella below the base M3.

I'm not sure other EVs can say the same. The Bolt is in this weird territory where it's well priced for an EV, but it's not particularly well priced otherwise. Likewise the Nissan Leaf. I haven't seen or dealt with the VW.

It is very shrewd of Tesla to stick to price points where they can compete effectively. Focusing on places where they can sell vehicles which are competitive on merits allows them to sell vehicles as quickly as they produce them.

It’s VWs own argument. The Beetle was “1”. The Golf was “2”. The ID.3 is their third generation people car.

The model Y is 49k, this is 40k before the 7500 tax credit. So the model Y is 20% more expensive before the credit. The credit makes the Y 16,500 more.

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/volkswagen/id4/2022/2021-vol...

> As mentioned earlier, the rear-drive ID4 Pro model starts at $39,995, with the ID4 AWD Pro model checking in at $43,695 to start when it launches later next year. Both of those prices are before a potential federal tax credit of $7,500 is applied, however. There are just two options for the ID4 Pro at launch—a Statement Package and a Gradient Package.

You can get the Model Y for $40k for the moment anyhow, just not from their web order form.

Both the base Model Y and the ID.4 have about 80 miles less range than the Long Range Model Y which is the $50k one.

How is the ID.4 software and charging network?

You can use A Better Routeplanner to plan out some road trips in the ID.4 (and other EVs). It's a good way to see if a particular EV will be practical for you:

https://abetterrouteplanner.com/

I really wish VW was offering the ID.3 in the US. That's the form factor I really want in an electric right now, and more likely to be the next Beetle.

This. I can't part with my Suzuki SX4 because there's almost no comparables in the US for some reason.

The SX4 and Fiat Scaddi are cousins and were often made in the same plant, subsequently Fiat made the 500 L and 2020 models are still available in the US. It’s a tad larger, but has most of the virtues of the SX4.

(I still miss Suzuki and hope they come back.)

Small hatchbacks are being abandoned for crossovers. It’s sad. I love my Honda Fit and they stopped selling them in North America...

The new Toyota Yaris just won Car of the year in Europe. Of course it isn't an EV if that's what you are looking for but definitely one of the best hatchbacks out there.

Škoda is releasing a twin of the ID4 at the same time, which looks better (subjective, but it has a more “normal car” look), supposedly higher quality-feel in the interior, and loads more cargo.

I think VW are actually nervous about their sibling cannibalizing ID4 sales. They should be. https://www.topgear.com/car-news/electric/fully-electric-sko...

I think Škoda availability is extremely dependent on geographic market.

I don't see why, the money ends up in the same bag.

It wouldn't be the end of the world for the VW group, but for the brand itself and the group's strategy of having one brand be the more premium one - it would be a weird setback. And an embarrassing one for VW.

A fully speced Skoda enyak in Ireland comes to over 80K USD and most basic version with just a charging cable is over 50K USD, outside of the environment I don't see the motivation for moving to electric, I can have the 2/3 year old car with higher spec for less than half those costs and absorb the running costs and extra tax with money left over, I don't see how all of society is going to move to electric given the enormous cost s.

It’ll go down hopefully. ID4/Enyaq marks the first really mainstream and full size (only range compromised vs ICE, not size etc) from mainstream brands. Leaf, Bolt, Teslas were not that (a Tesla to replace a full size wagon or suv is the still elusive Y or the luxury X)

Whether 50k over 80k is worth if depends on incentives and taxes. For me the tax on the 50k one will be $1-2k per year and almost nothing on the electric. Then there is a $3.5k one time subsidy, slightly lower maintenance costs and fuel savings (assuming home charging).

It’s still a more expensive car to own but it’s not fair to compare sticker price. To me I calculate around a $10k extra cost over the 3 years I’d own the car. This is why I’m buying the ICE and will go for an electric next time. I also don’t want to be a tester for the first gen cars. Always buy the second gen.

Isn't Škoda parent company....VW?

That's why it's a twin model.

Yeaaaaaahhhh, I don't know, man.

Every VW owner I've ever met had some kind of long-term electrical or wiring problem with their car. And that was with a gasoline or diesel engine.

Add me to the list of "I'll never buy VW again" people. Electrical problems, then when we waited 2k miles too long to change the timing belt, the whole engine was totaled. Later, same car ended up belching the turbo fan out the exhaust system. It was a $25,000 car that cost us $35,000. Never VW Again.

The engine being totaled was your fault, always change the timing belt on or before its due to be changed.

Sure... because the consequence for being 1 month behind on regular maintenance should be complete destruction of the engine with no warning.

I mean. I accept that there was negligence on my part there. But it wasn't a huge lapse and that is the crappiest of crappy failure modes. Never had another car as finicky and high maintenance.

When I visited Sarajevo my beaten down 1995 VW polo made the grim bosnian guy who's job it was to being tourists to their apartments smile — "This is a good car, you can get every part cheap."

And indeed I had to exchange the motor because my brother drove it too long without putting oil into it. Exchanging the whole motor block costed 500 Euros. My father exchanged one of his front lights for the same price.

>we waited 2k miles too long to change the timing belt, the whole engine was totaled.

Uh, if anything that is perfect engineering.

I hope this new all EV vehicle has a kick ass screen / tech stack system.

So many of their older ones are slow / janky etc. Carplay is a godsend on their other vehicles.

I'm assuming buttery smooth ipad like experience with great touch screen - can anyone confirm this? Burned too many times to trust the marketing vids.

I don't know about others, but the new Tesla Model S/X comes with a Radeon Navi 23 GPU which is basically a PS5 level gaming computer. You can play games on all Teslas. I think the traditional manufacturers are substantially behind when it comes to features / performance of the in-car entertainment systems. https://www.theverge.com/2021/1/27/22253258/tesla-model-s-ps...

Do you want performance or durability? You may not be able to have both.

Tesla hasn't been using automotive grade parts in its cars:

https://www.thedrive.com/tech/27989/teslas-screen-saga-shows...

Tesla says the main interface to the car was only supposed to function for 5 years. I don't think anyone buying those cars would have expected that:

https://www.thedrive.com/tech/39065/tesla-claims-failing-tou...

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-tesla-recall-idUSKBN2A21F...

Automotive grade parts do matter.

I'd rather take performance, if the computer is replaceable.

The whole car is replaceable. Is that an efficient use of money? And, if EVs are to be green, is that ecologically friendly?

I don't have to replace the car if I can upgrade the computer. Any computer gets old in 5 years.

Well, you can't.

Last week I drove a brand-new rented Golf VIII for 1500km and as the stack in in this ID does look pretty much exactly like this Golf's I'd say I can make a good guess about it. The system is smooth, definitely not janky, but also far removed from an ipad experience in terms of UX and control layout.

The UX is not very good. I sat in countless makes of rental cars and when there are tactile switches for core functions like climate control, I never had any problem whatsoever to use it without even thinking about it; even while driving I could say with confidence I can quickly adjust whatever climate control and not to have to worry about it. But here, to me, the strictly touchpad focussed input and menu layout was simply confusing. It's not intuitive where your paired Bluetooth phone options are, for example. The radio screen is a pain to use. I didn't dare messing with it while driving, and I didn't dare navigate through 2+ layers of screen to get to climate control while driving :/

Maybe it's bearable if you use that car on a daily basis and get married to it, but as a swing by experience, it's certainly not very impressive. Even the MINIs and BMWs I drove, with the weird spinning menu controller (at least in previous generations), where often better than the free form touchpad input in this car. I wouldn't know if anybody is able to make it better though (haven't driven that many different makes).

Which is why I smile every time someone tells me that EVs are "more reliable" because they have "less moving parts". That might be true, but they also have vastly more components and structures, of all different sizes from cables down to nanometer features in silicon, that MUSTNT move, or it will fail.

How many cars are scrapped because they wore out mechanically, and how many are scrapped due to economically un-fixable electrical issues?

actually no, they don’t. drive train wise the have less fun enough. Resolver and current sensor.

Electronics is cheap and easy to replace. If properly designed and protected from heat and water - practically doesn't wear out. Mechanical problems like corrosion of structural parts is almost always uneconomical to fix.

Sorry, have you owned a car made in the last 10ish years?

Yes. Actually a brand new Mazda Cx-5. During the first 4 years it had 2 very minor mechanical issues covered by warranty and 1 minor electrical issue - broken USB (but not sure if that wasn't mechanical really, these ports are often fragile). Overall it was a very good car and much more reliable than the previous, much more mechanical Ford from 2007.

And my new car is still too new to tell anything, but AFAIK it is leading many reliability rankings - Lexus CT. Weird, considering it is a hybrid, isn't it?

I also have some electronic devices at my household that has worked flawlessly for over 40 years since manufactured - eg an analogue oscilloscope and lab power supply.

And a few new cheap LED lamps that half of them died within the first 6 months. :D

I conclude the thing is in proper design and high quality assembly, not electronics per se. It can be good, it can be also crap if done badly.

Have you ever seen a wiring harness get replaced in a car? Manufacturers will try to do this before declaring a car totalled because of wiring defects.

It's an amazing thing to witness. The car is literally stripped down to the frame and then reassembled again.

That makes me feel less bad about the VW Golf I had that would spontaneously turn it self off while I was driving down the road.

Fortunately this problem manifested itself early enough (6 weeks after purchase, with ~200 miles on to odometer) that we were able to win a lemon law case and get our money back.

I have the opposite anecdata, this needs a citation, especially when compared against Tesla

It won't matter how many EVs automakers release if they can't build a reliable charging network. Most EVgo and Chargepoint chargers don't work (entirely, or at their putative rates).

Electrify America's charging stations almost always work...unfortunately, as the last man on the field they have the least convenient locations.

Tesla's car build quality may be crap, but they'll be able to coast on the superiority of the Supercharger network for at least 3-4 years.

There aren't any Tesla chargers in my town of 120k people and there are over 200 other kinds of chargers, all of which have worked fine whenever I've needed them.

You must currently be outside of the U.S.? There is no location in the U.S. which has "200 other kinds of [EV] chargers" but no Tesla chargers.

EVgo is based in LA...but even in EVgo's home base it has fewer than 1/10th the number of chargers as Tesla. More embarrassingly for EVgo, Tesla has more chargers within 10 miles of EVgo's HQ than EVgo does.

The combined number of non-Tesla EV chargers in the LA area is fewer than the number of Tesla chargers (even without including limited-access Tesla chargers in this number, such as those in hotels or office buildings that are limited to the use of those buildings' guests or occupants), and most of the non-Tesla chargers are located just far enough away from anyplace you'd actually want to go that you'd have to drive out of your way to use them...and then spend 30 minutes hanging out on a dark, deserted street away from any shops or restaurants.

Tesla has done many things poorly, but the Supercharger network was the one thing they got right.

3-4 years isn't a very long time even compared to the lifespan of an unreliable car

It looks like a great entrant into the EV market, though I still can't find solid information on how many they've built, how many they're building per month, and when they expect to really ramp up production to a sizable number.

There are a ton of articles online from late 2019 and early 2020 about massive ID.4 production numbers, but then they had that big software problem where they all sat around until fixed. They eventually sold those off... and now they're being very quiet about how many they can build per month.

Over the last ~5 years Tesla have spent billions building some of the biggest factories in the world to build batteries and they still can't make enough, which is currently why they can only make about 1 million vehicles/year (should hit that in 2021).

I realize VW and other big players have the required talent to build vehicles at immense scale, but they're all being very quiet about how they plan to make enough batteries to reach even 50% of what Tesla are already making in 2021.

Do we have any more up to date information on this?

Did you confuse the model numbers?

The ID.3 (which is not sold in the US) had a very early production start and initial software problems (they are getting a big update starting march 2021)

The ID.4 production started later.

VW announced ~40 billions worth of contracts with the usual vendors for battery cells (I recall at least LG and Catl). Those are are putting billions into new plants around the world

Sorry, you're right, I did get confused.

All the same, do we have expected production numbers, and when production is expected to ramp up to those numbers? (for the ID.3 and ID.4) ?

I'm scratching my head at you believing VW is being "very" quiet. They give pretty regular updates on their Twitter account, break down targets, current production and construction progress by factory, and the company as a whole seems proud of their progress.

For instance Zwickau is at 800 per day for ID.3/ID.4 lines combined, and targeting 1400 this summer for the same (keep in mind it's a five day work week, this annualizes to 330k units). ID.5 is in test production there as well.

I feel like I know roughly as much about what the VW group (including Porsche, Audi etc) is up to as I do about Tesla. Many other car makers are keeping their cards closer to their chest, and it's presumably not because they're holding a winning hand.

https://twitter.com/vwsachsen_de

Thanks, I hadn't seen that twitter account, and as I don't speak German it's difficult to parse.

Matthias Schmidt is probably worth a follow. He documents industry progress towards the tightening EU emissions regulations, which is a fascinating subject in itself.

The electric vehicles subreddit also covers the wider industry in some detail - although often in the form of passive aggressive shitposting between Tesla bulls and bears.

https://mobile.twitter.com/auto_schmidt/status/1364938710798...

Today's WSJ had a review[1]. The author's verdict was roughly that it does well compared to its closest gas-powered competitors, but doesn't match up well against its electric competitors (wrt in-car experience, value for money or performance.)

1: https://www.wsj.com/articles/volkswagen-id-4-should-tesla-wo..., paywall.

This jumped out at me:

> There is no infrared camera for driver monitoring, but it does use a capacitive sensor in the steering wheel instead of measuring torque on the steering column as a proxy for knowing if the driver has their hand on the steering wheel.

What happens if you're wearing gloves?

> 0.4 kWh/h

Isn’t this just, umm, 0.4 kW?

Yes. When can we just use Joules and Watts

With large car makers catching up quickly, I don't see how Tesla with it's build quality issues will survive the next 10 years.

Cuss no one gives a shit. People get in a Tesla and feel like a million bucks.

If you look at Norway Tesla lost half of its market share last year. I don't think they will have a problem surviving but I also don't think the other manufacturers are going to sit idly by for much longer.

Tesla will survive and they will fix their build quality issues. What won't survive is current TSLA evaluation when other car manufacturers report their RV sales numbers in 2022. And I think that's the reason behind Elon's ninja crypto moves.

I would hold it until Q4 2021 right before the annual reports because I don't want to risk. But I think Q4 2022 is going to be the hardest hit.

Tesla would be deep in the red if they didn't sell greenhouse gas emissions credits to other car makers. In a few years they won't have that income any more so unless something extraordinary happens it is bye bye Tesla. With the build quality problems and old carmakers scaling up EV production I don't see any Tesla in 2025.

All of the legacy entrants to the EV market are meaningless sideshows for the simple fact that they don't make their own batteries. Building an EV is a trivial commodity. Manufacturing high energy density LiPo battery cells at a low enough price and high enough volume to build millions of cars is the actual barrier. And Tesla is currently the only manufacturer in the world with this level of vertical integration. Everyone else is just competing for supply from LG Chem and Panasonic, which is why no other manufacturer has come close to Tesla's volume or performance/price.

It is amazing to me that people have fallen for the propaganda that Tesla is a battery company. They buy their batteries from the same companies as everyone else.

Tesla doesn't make its own batteries. That is the fact. Anything else is bluster.

What are they doing at the Nevada factory then? https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-01-04/tesla-fli...

https://www.tesla.com/blog/battery-cell-production-begins-gi...

> by 2018, the Gigafactory will produce 35 GWh/year of lithium-ion battery cells, nearly as much as the rest of the entire world’s battery production combined.

The battery cells are made by Panasonic on-site https://techcrunch.com/2020/09/08/panasonic-to-expand-batter...

What they’re doing is “working with Panasonic”: https://na.panasonic.com/us/whatmovesus/gigafactory

(Not that I begrudge them for having good strategic partners; Apple doesn’t manufacture the iPhone, Amazon doesn’t manufacture the Kindle).

People seem to loose the ability for critical thinking when they become worshippers of a product/company or man.

Tesla's battery slideshow showing their new battery that supposedly has 50% more energy also happens to be that much larger. But for what ever reason their marketing people thought it would be ethical to make them the same size on the slides.

You need to distinguish between battery cells and battery packs - a pack being thousands of cells combined with complex monitoring, heating and cooling systems.

Cells are made at the gigafactory by panasonic (to a tesla design). But the battery packs are manufactured by Tesla, and there is a lot of engineering and innovation in the packs themselves.

Can you explain Tesla's 10 GWh/year Kato Road battery pilot plant then? Even though it's experimental, it's already about 10th largest battery production plant in the world.

That seems backwards. Batteries are indistinguishable components, cars aren't. It's the batteries that are commodities.

Only if there is no innovation and there is no supply constraints, otherwise you have a competitive advantage.

> Batteries are indistinguishable components, cars aren't. It's the batteries that are commodities.

They're not though, that's the thing. There's absolutely nothing new about EV's themselves; they've existed for a century. The entire reason they're taking off now is battery technology. Being able to manufacture enough cells with enough energy density for a low enough cost is the actual secret sauce for any EV manufacturer.

And they will be commodities in less than 10 years. What is the range that would cover 99.99% of use cases? 500 miles/800km? After that it's just a bragging number. Tesla will release new model S that can do it. It took them 10 years of optimisation to achieve this number.

There's absolutely nothing new about EV's themselves; they've existed for a century.

This is nonsense. The drivetrain in a tesla or a Kia or Hyundai bears no resemblance to stuff that was around 100 years ago. To make a good EV you need:

- good battery cells

- thousands of those cells combined into an intelligent and well designed battery pack (with cooling, heating, monitoring etc)

- an efficient drivetrain

All three of those elements need to be right, and thats why e.g. competent manufacturers like Audi are still struggling to make an EV with decent range at a decent price

Another element for your list: the rest of the car

Indeed

I think you’ve focusing too much on aesthetics.

Some people below saying batteries are a commodity: Battery cells are a commodity, but the battery packs where thousands of battery cells are combined with monitoring, heating and cooling systems are not. They're a very complicated bit of kit.

Building an EV is a trivial commodity

This isn't true either, its all about efficiency, if your drivetrain is not efficient then you waste money and weight on a bigger battery pack than is necessary.

In summary: EV batteries are not simple (battery packs are actually very complicated). EVs are not simple either - the drivetrain, braking/regen systems, power management, heating are all very hard to get right. If you dont get the right performance/efficiency balance, your car is heavier and more expensive for a given range than it should be.

VW builds its own packs for the ID cars in Braunschweig (with externally purchased cells) [1]

[1] https://www.volkswagenag.com/en/news/stories/2018/10/powerfu...

Indeed. I was just replying to the people who were saying 'batteries are easy' - people miss the cell/pack distinction.

Agreed. It's easy to miss that distinction if you are not following the technology.

> Everyone else is just competing for supply from LG Chem and Panasonic, which is why no other manufacturer has come close to Tesla's volume or performance/price.

But LG Chem is spending billions to expand production capacity in Michigan specifically to supply the legacy brands.

This isn’t a sideshow. If Ford, GM, and VW follow through on their commitments Tesla will be 4th or 5th place in EV market share. Now... I’d be willing to believe that none of them will follow through, but I certainly wouldn’t assign a high probability to it.

> If Ford, GM, and VW follow through on their commitments Tesla will be 4th or 5th place in EV market share.

First, Ford, GM, and VW need to figure out charging. Even if you assume they are going to catch up in terms of battery production, they still have infrastructure which is only marginally capable of supporting the small number of non-Teslas out there now. Double the number of EVs and the problem just gets worse.

Maybe Electrify America is going to come through. I haven't seen a ton of evidence they will.

Meh, I don’t see that. In the early days of gasoline cars, people bought their fuel at various stores. The profit motive caused individuals to create fueling stations. We’ll see that with electric charging too. Where there is a demand, supply will follow.

Tesla only survived by selling greenhouse gas emissions credits, without them Tesla would be deep in the red. Tesla won't be around to use those factories unless they come up with something to make money as in 2025 the income from credits will likely be zero. That is a huge hole more than ten times the size of its income they have to pull out of a magic hat in 2-4 years. Not likely to happen.

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