Hacker News Reader

Comment by dartharva | Hacker News Reader

Being from a third-world country, it it feels weird how western media so casually uses the word "poverty". Where I come from, living in poverty mostly means living in abject poor living conditions- without a decent place to live in, without guarantee of being able to secure meals for the day, etc.

People who can afford daily food and internet and computers will never be classified as living in "poverty" here.

View on HN

Gah. I can't remember the book but it classifies the different levels of poverty. There were 4 levels.

I'm going from memory but level 1 was what you describe.

Level 2 is being able to meet your needs but all your time goes into meeting those needs.

Level 3 is having enough extra money to pay for things you don't need.

Level 4 was IIRC basically not having to work.

Most countries have a range of 1-3 or 2-3 or 3-4 or some distribution of that.

Anyway long story short, western countries mostly have 2-4 and don't know what 1 even looks like (on a lived experience level). They've seen pictures of it and there are people living in Level 1 in western countries, they just aren't as front and center. If you've lived near Level 1 you know what real poverty looks like. If you haven't you think that Level 2 is real poverty. Both need to be addressed, but I agree that Level 1 poverty is so much worse for people living there.

I think it's much more about expectations. People from poorer countries have much lower "needs". They live in smaller homes, use worse electronics, use older cars etc. They expect less, so their needs are lower. Once they become richer their needs will grow too.

I don't think so, it's about relative cost. Everything is so much more expensive in richer countries, but comparatively speaking, cars, TVs, phones are much cheaper.

Like a phone is £20, but a weekly shop for a family might be £100. A TV might be £250, but rent is £500.

So you can be in the paradoxical situation of being able to afford to buy a phone or a TV one month, then next month run out of money for food or rent.

It's difficult to change habits. What if the needs don't grow, what do?

Expectations are definitely a big part of it. As someone who lives in the third world, (and only spends about one/two weeks a year in the first world), it always amazes me the minor (from my perspective) stuff that make some people in the first world really irritated.

Some that I can remember:

- Someone completely mad at their phone because the video on a call was dropping (just after landing, while the plane was still taxing, in the middle of the tarmac of a very large airport).

- The airbnb-mate in a shared Airbnb crying because the outside of the entrance of the house smelled a bit of cigarettes. I mean like real telenovela ending style tears.

- Someone kicking and shouting at a ticket vending machine because it was out of service (a working one was next to that one)

- Complaining about food choice in an event buffett that had like five different cuisines.

Fortunately my needs haven't grown that much, it seems that the only first world thing I want is a Japanese toilet.

As someone who lives in the first world, I share your amazement.

"Factfulness" by Hans Rosling

Did a really good job of defining the levels and putting them in perspective. In addition, it's a refreshingly optimistic take on the direction humanity is trending. I read the book because it was recommended by Bill Gates

That's IT!

Thank you for reminding me.

I totally agree, we hear so much negativity his approach to showing how humanity in general is better off today than any time in the past is encouraging.

The article isn’t talking about just western countries. The subheading is: “The workers who make the Japanese shows the world is binge-watching can earn as little as $200 a month. ”

I know, but NYT is western media. My point was that they have too low of a bar for classifying "poverty".

You mean too high a bar?

The way I see it, constant dissatisfaction is a core part of making progress

When you're looking at policy to address lifting up the people struggling at the bottom in various ways the only reasonable course is to define it relative to local conditions. Looking globally ignores local prices and needs for example.

Poverty is defined as a certain % of the average (normally the median) income.

And there are plenty of people living rough in the west.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com