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Comment by antattack | Hacker News Reader

Tesla is shifting nothing. Tesla is consuming all batteries that are available and, after starting operations in China they gained access to CATL who heavily invested in iron phosphate.

Thanks to high efficacy of Tesla drive train, base models can have decent range, around 250miles EPA, with iron phosphate battery packs.

However, iron phosphate battery volumetric density, at this time, does not allow for cars with what I would consider minimum for a single car family, in locations with real winters: 330miles EPA.

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> does not allow for cars with what I would consider minimum for a single car family, in locations with real winters: 330miles EPA.

* in the USA

Our EV (our only car) has 100-150km real-world range (60-90miles). We have real winters. We can get everywhere we want to for daily driving. My grandparents has a cabin 2 hours away that we visit regularly in winter. We can get there one one fast-charge that takes less time than we use to buy groceries for the trip (fast-charger we use is next to a super-market).

I've borrowed my moms ICE car and a friends Tesla Model S for a road-trip across the country a couple of times though.

But Northern Europe does not have the same problem with suburban sprawl and lack of public transportation, people don't usually drive as far regularly, speed limits are lower (higher efficiency) and now there's fast-chargers everywhere.

I think this is a fundamental difference between European and North American perspectives: everything is so much closer in Europe, and so much farther away in NA.

That’s certainly been my experience when I’ve visited the USA (I’m British and live in Berlin, have visited central and north CA, Nevada, Salt Lake City, NYC/Newark, Rhode Island and the Cambridge/Boston area).

Well, the saying is that Europeans think 100 miles is a long way and Americans think 100 years is a long time.

For a point of comparison, in the state I live in in the US, you’re looking at 2-4 hours to a lot of vacation destinations. Many of which don’t have fast chargers along the way. In a normal pre-Covid year, I’ve driven upwards of 8-15 hours one way to go places, multiple times a year.

Public transportation is available but far less convenient, and charging stations would add possibly hours on trips that length.

To be fair, Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries (LiFePO4) are really good technology. Incredibly safe - they don't catch fire in the same way that standard Lithium Ion batteries do - they're better for the environment, have crazy discharge rates, etc. The only thing they're worse at is energy density.

They don't perform badly in winters, I characterized the cold-weather relative performance of LiFePO4 vs LiIon batteries for an aerospace engineering project I did in college.

Frankly I thought those characteristics would outweigh density in automotive applications, but I was mistaken.

I believe they are significantly better for cycle lifetime as well.

Difference of opinion, I think 200 miles is plenty of range even for most 1 car families.

That is basically 1 stop from LA to vegas, and 1-2 stops from LA to San Francisco.

I'd like to see focus on lowering the base cost of Teslas, and the lower the range target the easier to get there.

200 miles is not 200 miles in real winter though.

It's now closer than you might think (except in extreme conditions).

The main driver of range loss for earlier tesla's was the fact that they used an resistivity heater for the cabin/battery. That changed fairly recently to a heat pump. The range loss now is far less than it used to be.

Extreme temps will render the heat pumps useless, but that's not the common case. You've got to be in northern Candida and Alaska before you are starting to talk about a useless heatpump.

I think the recent experience in Texas shows that you have to plan for the worst case even if you don't think it will be necessary. Anecdotally, I know the manager of a car dealership here in Utah (we get real winters, at least sometimes and in parts of the state) who says he gets a lot of Tesla owners trading in their cars, and he implied it had to do with range issues.

Texas's winter was extreme for Texas, not extreme for what a heat pump will do.

I live in Idaho and get "real" winters. Range hasn't been a problem for me with my 2018 Tesla (Even though it has the resistivity heater). I've even visited Utah a couple of times in the winter.

And, no offense, but I don't really trust the manager of a car dealership to give me accurate information about what's going on with tesla trade ins. You wouldn't ask a Chevy dealer about a Ford.

No extreme conditions are needed. When taking relatively short trips in winter you may have to heat up the whole interior and turn on the seat heating every time. And until the battery is warm enough you also sacrifice some of the quick charging, regeneration, and performance. The BEV owners in my family all reported 20-40+% lower range whenever they can't preheat everything while still plugged in, and that's at relatively decent temperatures (-6/-10C). Of course this can be partially mitigated (although freezing in a 60k+E car doesn't seem like a decent option to me) and might happen only for several weeks every year but even a penalty that's smaller than what the average ICE will see in winter is still a lot given the typical shorter range and longer "refill" times for EVs.

How short is short? Throughout the winter I'll do 20 or 30 mile trips around town with no problem. I don't even think about range in those cases. It's not until I'm doing 200 or 300 mile trips that I have to start prepping for things.

I'm itching to heatpump across Northern Candida

200 miles is not even 200 miles in summer when doing a road trip. Highway miles are less efficient than the average of the test cycle, and much less efficient if you drive on the faster side.

If you frequently go on long road-trips, 200 miles is not sufficient in summer or winter.

If you don't, 200 miles is more than sufficient, regardless of the season. If you absolutely have to make a 190 mile trip in winter, consider stopping for a charge, or renting/borrowing an ICE car.

It's also not 200 miles anyway.

You can't use 100% of your battery.

Most people preserve their battery health, so will not charge to 100% or drain to 0%

You can't (practically) supercharge to 100%. It will probably take as long to get from 80 to 100% as it does to get to 80%. In many cases it's not nice to hog the charger.

And its really hard to get to 0% even if you tried. There probably won't be a supercharger located right where you hit 0% even if you risked it.

So.. you really use the middle 60% of your battery, between 20% and 80%

> Most people preserve their battery health

No, most people don't pay any attention to it, which is why all the Battery Management Systems in all EVs pay attention for you.

On a tesla you set it in the UI and it is an integral part of charging. There's a charging "set limit" percentage from 60 to 100%. 60% (daily) up to 100% (marked trip) I think most people choose 70 or 80%

On busy superchargers the limit is moved down to 80% if it is set above it.

Now other cars treat their battery differently. They may indicate 100% but they reserve a buffer and it's really some lower percentage. I suspect tesla has a buffer too, even if it is just for temperature fluctuations, which seem to move the percentage around.

When the battery is also powering your car’s heater the range drops significantly. Especially with short trips that need to repeatedly warm up from cooler winter temperatures.

I think in a real winter the battery would need to be heated even when the car is parked overnight, no? Or store it in a well-heated garage overnight.

Nope, I walked outside in -10 degrees centigrade and had to choose between my diesel Sharan and my Renault Zoe. Easy choice: the Zoe had instant heat because of its heat pump. It worked fine even with with battery at -10, and the displayed range slowly rose, as the battery warmed up. Once the interior was comfortable, the BMS asked the heater to send some heat into the batteries. In the Zoe's air cooled batteries, the heating/cooling system is shared between the occupants and the BMS.

why not use a heat pump for heating given its >100% relative efficiency?

Edit: apparently some VW models include a heat pump for this reason.[1] Edit 2: Apparently some Teslas have it too. [2]

[1] https://www.speakev.com/threads/heat-pump-yes-or- no.16768/

[2] https://electrek.co/2020/03/13/tesla-model-y-has-a-heat-pump...

Where are you pumping the heat from?

outside, just like residential heat pumps.

yea but many places in winter heat pumps efficiency goes to basically a electric heater level and if works at all.

Not true. Inverter heat pumps can do 8 or more btu per watt at sub zero temps.

IIRC, cold climate specific (Mitsubishi Zubadan series for example) have COP of about ~2 at -20C. Even cheaper cold climate pumps do function at -30, albeit with COP barely above 1. So resistive heater should also be present, but it won't be used often.

In my opinion, proper winter-ready BEV should have a heat pump for heating the interior and battery, battery insulation to reduce uncontrollable loss of heat from battery, rotary heat exchanger to further save on heating ventilation air and double-pane windows to reduce losses from interior.

Double-pane windows would increase weight by about 5%, while decreasing losses through windows about 5x, iirc.

Stop. Just stop.

First off, brand ranges are rated at 100% capacity and many brands suggest to not charge to 100% most of the time if ever. Then throw in weather effects on range and this does not just mean winter but driving in rain can increase usage.

However the top two reasons to push 300 more as the baseline is simply convenience. The convenience of not having to worry about your charge or need to charge frequently. That removes the negative comparisons many try to make showing that BEVs are not ready for prime time. Once technology catches up and you can fix that range in ten minutes; not going to happen; then a lower range might be okay.

Second and more importantly the big automakers want you to buy into that idea so they can eek out small range improvements as a selling feature to get you into next year's car. Similar to how many of them still have heart failure of OTA in the definition Tesla uses it.

Now can there be a type of car where ranges are aimed at commuting only? Sure, but as a whole replacement vehicles for ICE vehicles should out perform on all numbers.

Don't let them sell you into an infinite cycle of range increases because they will. 250 is entry level now and 300 should be the minimum for any semi luxury and higher priced EV.

Hell look at the recently released Mini if you want an idea of where the industry hoped to be at but Tesla shot that idea full of holes and doubly so when the Bolt came along and now VW ID.* series.

For what it's worth, this is slowly changing. BattleBorn has certified their LifePo4 batteries to lower temperatures. Been a while since I watched this. [1] Just slower charge rates, but no longer unsafe due to charge controller changes. Previous versions would shut off the charge below 0C. So charging slowly over night may still be useful, but speed charging in cold weather would not.

[1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywn-vBjKblI

-20C is not enough

Yeah, they are compensating with heating elements. This will of course use some of the capacity. Telsa is doing heating elements as well. Heating during overnight charging should be easier if you are on grid power. Charging batteries when they are cold can harm them. Discharging them when they are cold equates to more internal resistance, so you could lose up to 15% range without heating elements. No idea how much power the heating elements draw. I would bet that Tesla's battery acquisition Maxwell [1] could make some improvements in this area.

[1] - https://techcrunch.com/2019/02/04/teslas-maxwell-acquisition...

It’s not as if internal combustion engines work great in -20C temperatures either. Often they won’t even start, and diesels typically have an (plug-in electric!) engine block heater in such climates. So I just don’t see this as a problem. Also, what proportion of the world lives in climates where it makes sense to optimize for -20C weather? Northern Europe, parts of North America... and that’s pretty much it. So while Norway (which now buys mostly electric cars... and famously a LOT of Teslas) might use cold-optimized chemistries, it’s not a major consideration for electrifying the world.

Also, what proportion of the world lives in climates where it makes sense to optimize for -20C weather?

Dismissing problems or desires that don't affect people you know is pretty shortsighted.

Also, skiing.

It’s dissmissible if the comparable solution (internal combustion engines) already have to use the exact same intervention (engine block heater). I grew up in Minnesota (and visit regularly). If anything it affects me MORE than most people, and I’ve been stranded with a non-starting internal combustion engine car in the cold winter many times which is how I know the existing internal combustion engines already don’t do well. It is not uncommon for parking lots (especially in the Northern parts) to be equipped with outlets for this precise reason (and people often leave their engines running while they go into the store on particularly cold nights so they won’t be stranded). Makes electrification there actually easier in some ways as there’s already widespread infrastructure for trickle charging.

Concerns which are not that well-informed are, indeed, dismissible.

If you drive an ICE car bought in say California to where it gets to -20c and park it outside it won’t start either since most likely the dealership didn’t include a block heater in your package.

Sure, maybe if the car is 40 years old. But every modern gas car (and all the diesels I've owned) will handle it just fine.

not true, i don't see anyone on my street plugging in and we get -30 or lower some days, though probably not good for the engine but yes they will start no problem.

Not sure what it’s being downvoted if you street park a car at -20 it ain’t gonna start if it doesn’t have engine block heating.

If your car was sold in a region that gets that cold it was likely pre-installed if not you had to take care of that.

The block heater heats up the oil which heats up the engine block it’s usually electric that can run off the battery or an external outlet.

If you buy a car which was intended for warm or moderate climates and drive it in Norway or Minnesota during peak winter you won’t be starting it in the morning.

This is why garages (including heated garages) are super common in Minnesota. It’s not just an extravagance. And, conveniently, garages tend to have outlets in them, very often better than just 120V 15A, too!

This isn’t true. Very few vehicles have engine block heaters and it’s really more of a diesel thing because the fuel gels.

My car happily starts at -40, if a tad reluctantly at times.

If your car isn’t old or diesel, it will probably start at any outside temperature.

About the only difference is the engine coolant needs to be rated to expected low temperatures.

Eh? In Northern Europe new petrol cars are sold with block heaters, the recommendation is to plug in the car when if gets to -10-15c.

Not only does it ensures your car can start but it also prevents damage to the engine.

This is how outside parking in Northern Europe during the winter looks like: https://www.bigstockphoto.com/image-78137918/stock-photo-blo...

No such thing in the coldest metropolitan area in the US (Minneapolis/St. Paul, at least there are none which are larger and colder). Avg daily high/low of -5C/-13C in January over the last ten years. City streets are lined with cars, and only very rarely will you see an extension cord pulled to a street parked vehicle.

Diesel at least was much more popular in Europe which would explain the prevalence of block heaters and the popularity of their use in gasoline/petrol engines, but that doesn't mean they are necessary.

Growing up we had a block heater on our large diesel farm truck and on diesel tractors, I have never in my life used a block heater on a non-diesel vehicle having spent the first >25 years living in climates which regularly hit -30C.

These are also quite common in Canada.

Diesel is common in Europe but so is petrol.

Plugs for block heaters are very common in Northern Europe, Finland is turning them into charging spots now https://insideevs.com/news/332283/finland-has-a-genius-charg...

The heater also does plenty of other things including defrosting windows.

It is a good idea, but there are lots of good ideas when it comes to cars. Do you ever start your car when parked on an incline? That can play havoc with oil delivery but we all do it. Park a car in the cold with a not-full gas tank? That isn't recommended either.

Cold-starting engines 30 years ago was a big problem. They had lots of different metals that would flex against each other. Modern engines are built to tighter tolerances and that means metals that expand/contract at more similar rates. And our oils do not thicken as easily thanks to improved chemistry. A cold start really isn't going to destroy your engine. It will still probably outlive the rest of your car.

30yr ago was 1991. Pretty much anything with fuel injection (i.e. basically everything in 1991) will start just fine at low temperatures.

The one OEM who's processes I have knowledge of with was doing their testing down to -40F in the late 1980s (which coincidentally is the temperature at which their electronics system starts throwing codes for misbehaving temperature sensors).

Partially agree, but...

- Some of the manufacturers at times have moved back towards Iron-Block/Aluminum-head designs (rather than all aluminum.) Thankfully yes modern gasket technology and metallurgy has improved but there is still extra wear and tear as a result.

- Depending on the way the ECU is set up, there may be other advantages to pre-warming the block. As an example, my WRX sometimes gets -really- cranky starting in cold temps. But it's not the start I'm worried about.

    - Below ~25F, the fluid in the clutch gets to the point where I can sometimes pull my leg off the clutch and wait at least a half-second before the pedal 'thunks' up. An engine block heater would probably help with that a bit.

    - The way the ECU is programmed, there is a -long- delay from when the car switches from open loop (just working off a MAP or MAF sensor) to closed loop (looking at the O2 sensor). In cold enough weather, If the temp gauge doesn't reach a certain point before I hit the highway, it -never- hits closed loop and my mileage is absolute trash. Not every car is set up like this, but more than you think. It's an emissions thing.

Most of your clutch's working fluid is nowhere near any block heater. It is in your clutch master cylinder right above your clutch pedal. It is essentially inside the cabin with you rather than under the hood with the engine. You might have a fluid reservoir under the hood but, warm or cold, that fluid isn't being used unless you have a leak.

As for running temperatures, the standard trick is to reduce airflow across the radiator. Trucks put on "bras" or you can rig up something made of carboard in front of the radiator. Always cardboard because it is soft enough not to damage anything if it gets loose.

Growing up in central Alberta (with routine -25C daytime temps) we always plugged in our cars, but now almost nobody does. There's no need anymore. Modern cars start fine.

Even my diesel VW Jetta had no problem.

> This is how outside parking in Northern Europe during the winter looks like: https://www.bigstockphoto.com/image-78137918/stock-photo-blo...

Only the fancy ones, most people don’t have parking spots like these.

The building I used to live in Finland had outlets for maybe 20% of the parking spaces. Mostly people wanted the pole if they wanted to run an interior heater so their windows wouldn’t be frozen in the morning.

It'll start fine if you fill it with 0W or 5W oil and didn't compromise on the battery. Even -30C should be fine.

Some people fill their car with 10W oil or don't buy a battery with adequate CCA, but that's on them.

It hits -20 all the time where I live and many/most people in the neighbourhood park outside. Modern cars with healthy batteries absolutely will start.

So will an electric vehicle. Of course, it’s recommended to let your internal combustion engine run a bit to warm up before highly stressing it to prevent damage.

LiFePO4 batteries simply want to be warmed up before accepting a significant charge rate to prevent damage. That’s comparable.

> Of course, it’s recommended to let your internal combustion engine run a bit to warm up before highly stressing it to prevent damage.

I don't have a reference handy, but I read a decade or so ago that the best way to warm up and engine is actually just to drive in a reasonable fashion.

Yup, that would be fine. Driving carefully would be acceptable. Just don’t gun it. (I have a lead foot, so I’ve had to watch myself...)

Speaking as someone who's car is currently plugged in, and who just went through a couple weeks of below -40c mornings, this is bunk. Modern IC engines start reliably at -20 without preheating. Mine started fine this morning at -22c even though I had not plugged it in. It isn't a great idea for the engine/battery in the long term, I am kicking myself a little for not plugging it in, but I had no doubt it would start (honda civic). I've even cold started it at -36 in an emergency. I generally wait for my brake/clutch/PS fluid to warm up but they have nothing to do with starting.

In a modern IC engine, the real issue isn't the block heat but the battery. A bad/old/tired battery won't provide the amps when cold. For all practical purposes, anyone worried about cold starts would be better served by a battery heater/blanket than a block heater.

For gasoline vehicles, you’re correct (although it certainly helps to have a block heater). Block heaters are essential for cold weather diesels. But all combustion engine vehicles need a way to start, and they rely either on muscle power (eg pull-start lawnmower) or a battery (okay, I have hill-started my car quite a few times...). In practicality it means internal combustion engines rely on batteries just as much for starting. And the chemistry they used (lead acid) wasn’t terribly good in cold weather, either. Nowadays, they sell nice compact lithium chemistry battery jumpstart packs the size of a paperback novel which will start your car. Regardless, batteries are still the solution.

Just remember that modern car electronics stress the hell out of a car battery during car use and they don't last as long as they used to.

If your engine is running, your battery won't even feel those electronics. Your alternator/rectifier is pumping 13.9v so long as the engine is turning. Your 12v battery definitely should not be drained by anything unless at a very low idle/off.

>It’s not as if internal combustion engines work great in -20C temperatures either.

Pretty much every ICE made in the last 40yr, save your $110 lawnmower that was made without a choke to save $0.38, is fine at -10 to -20f so long as it has some semblance of compression. If anything the biggest problem is that batteries don't work so well in the cold so they'll have a really tough time starting an old engine with poor compression (which will be even harder to start in the cold).

Diesels need plug-in electric engine block heaters at anything like those temperatures as well. This would be the same thing.

No they do not. They need winterized diesel fuel (kerosene added), but that's it. -30C was a "nothing special" for BMW N47 engine to start. -37C is a pour point of 0w40 engine oil, but higher temps are fine in terms of cold engine startups

Not a lot of people live in climates where it goes under -20C. Folks in Eastern Canada seem to be doing fine with 250 mile EVs as well.

What are you talking about? It gets under -20C routinely each winter for a couple nights every year through the whole of the northeast; upstate New York, Vermont, Maine, New Hampshire, Ontario, Quebec.

Toronto is the 3rd/4th most populous city in North America (depending on how you count it). Almost every winter there's a -25C overnight. Not for days on end like where I grew up in Alberta, and not every year, but it definitely happens. There's 7 million people in the Greater Toronto / Hamilton corridor alone. 2 million people in the Montreal area. Almost a million in Quebec City, 1.4 millionish people in the Ottawa/Gatineau area. Not to mention Detroit, Windsor, Buffalo, Albany, Syracuse, Burlington, etc. etc. etc. Oh, and I'm seeing a mean minimum of -19C in Chicago for January, too, so throw in a few more million people there because that's close enough.

"Not a lot indeed." Only maybe a couple dozen million people.

EDIT: Oh yeah, I hear the US has a "midwest", too. I hear there's people there, too.

Here’s a map of the minimum yearly temperatures in the US: https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/73h7eo/winter_low_...

(note C vs F on the legend)

As someone who lives in California, and likes snow sports, it looks like I could run into -20C conditions in the Sierras, and certainly the Rockies (although driving that far with an electric car would probably be too annoying to attempt).

It’s probably not a concern for the average Bay Area family.

Two weeks ago I had -32C in MN and it didn’t set any records.

Also my family back there told me it didn't get above -20C for like a week or two in a row.

I use a rough metric of 0°F as the lowest low to generally worry about (Fahrenheit is nice that the 0-100°F range is pretty close to the typical ambient temperature range in temperate zones). Despite living around the 5b/6a zone boundary (that's -10°F on the map), I have yet to see my car's temperature gauge report 0°F or below, so the conditions are a bit lower than I'd gauge as "lowest typical low."

But that said, zones 6a/6b are definitely in the region of "yeah, I'd worry about 0°F overnight", and people in 7a will definitely worry about temperatures around 10°F if they're going to start their car. 6a-7a covers most of the population corridor in the NE US, about ⅓ the US population. Additionally, much of the Midwest is in the 0°F-is-possible territory, from St. Louis and Chicago straight through to Detroit and Pittsburgh.

The general point is that starting in -20°C isn't some "well, sucks to live in Canada/Minnesota/North Dakota" concern, but rather "gee, a significant chunk of the US population has to do this on an annual basis."

Minimum single families drive 200 miles per day? Is 'minimum single family' a family of 12 average commuters?

Single-car family. As in, this has to serve the transportation needs of a family who relies on it as their only vehicle. That entails far more than their daily commute, and has to support a reasonable worst case, which is what his number represents. A car that only supports your average case is not very useful. And range is diminished in winter.

In other words, if I’m living in Dallas and I have to choose 1 car to meet all of my use cases, I’m not going to pick one that precludes me from ever being able to take the wife and kids to visit relatives in Houston, even if I only make that trip occasionally.

Tesla has superchargers exactly for situations like this. Lots of people do this trip (or longer ones) all the time in Teslas.

Anticipating your next complaint (“It takes so much longer to recharge!”) - You also save a lot of time by charging at home and never having to stop at a gas station. Overall, I think you save time because of this. It’s not exactly 1:1 equivalent because maybe long drive waits are more costly than frequent short gas stop visits and waits when you aren’t on a long road trip , but it’s really not the end of the world. Gives you some time to stretch your legs.

> Anticipating your next complaint (“It takes so much longer to recharge!”) - You also save a lot of time by charging at home and never having to stop at a gas station.

This is not really a valid argument. The point isn't how much time you spend refueling over a lifetime, but rather how many miles you can travel in a reasonable day for a long road trip (and how flexible your route can be). If long road trips are important to you and you only have one vehicle, of course you probably don't want it to be an EV.

In my view, EVs are incredible, but they're still a hard sell for most single-car households in America. But people should buy the car that matches their needs! No one is better off when fans of a particular type of car deliberately try to convince people to buy that type of car against their interests.

Did you read the rest of my comment? Quite an uncharitable response. I address exactly that...

I still think EVs are okay for a family that does a lot of road trips. You are describing... me. I routinely make a ~12 hour drive. We take a bit of a break every few hours to walk around and play with the dog. The rest of the time, car drives itself.

Hacker News is really getting worse. Taking me out of context by quoting the first line of my comment and ignoring the rest (where I specifically address your comment) is inappropriate. We are better than this.

I read the entire comment. I’m not talking about relative costs of waiting to refuel. I’m just talking about actual effective daily range for a road trip. Refuel times directly affect daily range.

It is obvious that "refuel times affect daily range." The question is whether slower "refuel" times on long trips are a net negative to ownership of an electric vehicle. Most people would say no.

It’s not exactly 1:1 equivalent because maybe long drive waits are more costly than frequent short gas stop visits and waits when you aren’t on a long road trip

As I said...

> It’s not exactly 1:1 equivalent because maybe long drive waits are more costly than frequent short gas stop visits and waits when you aren’t on a long road trip

Your comments have been quite low quality, I think kind of emblematic of how Hacker News has declined throughout the years. It's very easy to be contrarian if you can pick upon a thread, but as far as I remember HN guidelines discourage that.

I'm sure you have not formally crossed Amy HN guidelines, but it kind of sucks just seeing the current state of discourse (eg you) here compared to what it used to be.

Finally - I’d add that “refuel” times DO NOT affect daily range for an electric vehicle. You refuel at home, while you’re asleep. It’s irrelevant in those circumstances.

Okay. I’d prefer you discuss whether my comments are representative of HN’s decline elsewhere. I’m not qualified to judge that.

It may be that, at this stage in the technology, EVs may not suit all families as a single car. But there are many families that do have 2 or more cars and it totally makes sense for one of those cars to be and EV. Eventually, as battery/charger tech matures it becomes easier to satisfy those single car families, too.

even with a 200 mile range, ignoring the actual 330, you are making it from Dallas to Houston with a 15 minute stop in corsicana or huntsville.

I haven't downvoted you, because that doesn't make sense when you merely disagree with a person.

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