Comment by 8fingerlouie | Hacker News Reader

Comment by 8fingerlouie | Hacker News Reader

We have our "ops" guys that monitors the environments, and a list of people for each system that is more or less always on call. Each service/job that is being monitored has a procedure/description for how to respond to failures, and if nothing else works, the people on the list gets a call.

You're not required to take the call, but you get a fairly large sum of money if you do, meaning people usually take the call despite not being required to.

Because of laws here, you're required to have 11 hours of uninterrupted "free time" after leaving work (no laws on how long a work day is), so taking a call usually means you violate that, which in turn restarts the clock on your "free time", meaning you're entitled to "sleep in" on company time the next day. Doing so of course wreaks havoc on all planning, so very few people actually take the full 11 hours off, and instead just get in "late" around 9am.

Edit: I should probably have explained that the calls happen on average once per system every 2-4 weeks, and the amount of people on call is probably limited to <5%-10% of the engineers.

In what hellish sort of company is 9AM "late"?

MBA-run sweatshops.

Mandatory hours for most employees is "9am to 3pm". Opening hours for our customers is 10am to 4pm. Everybody is employed at 36 hours /week.

Most people get in between 7am and 8am, and leave between 3pm and 4pm.

We have the same policy. Mandatory hours so there is common time where everyone is at work, but if you do your other hours after or before mandatory hours is up to you. Works really well. There is plenty of time when everyone is at work and can communicate but late and early people can set they schedule as they like. Plenty of tasks to do when you don't need other people.

Just curious, in which country is 36hours/week standard? Or is it just your company?

I think most of Europe has a 37 hour/week work schedule, and because "we're better" we have 36 hour/week.

At least some of mainland Europe: Germany, France, Scandinavia, and IIRC the UK.

I’m in Sweden, so Scandinavia. Every company I know has 40h work weeks. Lunch break is not included so if you start working at 8, take a 1 hour lunch break around 12, then you can log off at 17.

The normal (office) working hours here are 37.5 hours per week, excluding lunch break, which is usually 30 minutes. That breaks down to 7.5 hours of work + 30 minutes of lunch break, meaning you get in at 8am and leave at 4pm.

AFAIK only France has a 35hrs week (7h/day), most of the other countries has 40hrs week.

If we are counting actual working hours, it is also 7 hours a day in Poland. (8hr/day inclusive of 30 minutes lunch plus cumulative 30 minute break from staring at a screen).

Ok, but where are you located? Where is "here" and who is "we're"?

Europe is not a single country but every EU nations has different labor laws and working hour contracts.

Last gig I had in Germany: it was 40h/week. I never seen a 36h/week schedule in France either... (I'm talking about standard software engineer positions).

In France base is 35h/week, 37/39 are frequent with the extra 2-4h hours then available 1:1 as extra vacation time ( RTT, you get hours on top of 35 worked over the year / 7 ( standard work day) of them over the year).

I'm currently on 35, might move to 37 ( majority at my company).

Here in UK 37.5h is standard. 8 hour days with mandatory 30 minutes for lunch.

Same in Croatia, I honestly thought it was standard in the EU with exceptions such as France.

Spending 9 hours at work seems awful even if your lunch break is 60 min instead of 30.

I sometimes wonder where the hell most HNers work where 9am is not considered late start. At a warehouse I worked at the shift was 6am to 2pm. And it was great that way as you avoided most of the summer heat. The software company where I work now, 8am is standard, that way you're nicely done at 4pm and have the entire evening to yourself. My wife is also a programmer and usually starts at 7:30am because that's their first scrum.

I work in the UK with mostly US team. Start at 10:30am or so

More important question is what time do you finish then?

8-10pm

I don't think I've ever worked on a development team where you could book a meeting before 10:30am and expect the team to be there.

I've always liked an early start for an early finish, I was one of the very few working early though in most places.

Back in ancient times, my first software job was with an crusty old fashioned company. We were required to be in before 8am, many people arrived as early as 6am. Dress code was also very strict (but more lenient than it was historically)

My second software job was with a company that was just as old but much more modern (not startup-ish). the boss required the team to be in before 9am, daily team meeting was at 9.

My job now has flextime with core hours between either 10-3 or 10-2 (can't recall which) but very few people arrive after 9am. All other jobs I've worked have flextime with similar core hours, there was only one job that had a true "no rules" approach.

My preferred hours used to be 730-330. The last place I was at the majority turned up around 930, and then milled about drinking coffee and chatting for the first hour or so.

> starts at 7:30am because that's their first scrum

We have scrum inside mandatory hours. There's a fairly strict company policy that you cannot schedule _recurring_ meetings outside mandatory hours, and if you do, you cannot expect people to attend, so scrum here is 9am. Even scheduling non recurring meetings outside mandatory hours is frowned upon.

As for the schedule itself, it fits nicely with (european) family life. My kids start school at 8am, so i usually drop them off at school on my way to work, and get in around 8:30am (before COVID anyway). I get off work at 4pm, and have the entire evening with my family.

I'm aware that at least some parts of the US has (or had ?) a much more fluid line between work and free time, where people will leave work to have lunch with their family, return to work, leave to watch a soccer game (or whatever), and return to work, and leave work around 7pm.

To me that sounds much more hellish than just working 8am to 4pm :)

This isn’t super common where I am (although you can do it). I had a coworker who practiced something like this so they could go to the gym in the afternoon when it would be less crowded. Or for the soccer example, not much of a choice if you want to watch live European sports.

Also at least in Seattle it seems like every doctor’s office keeps bankers hours (M-F 9-5) so you would have to disrupt your own workday to go to an appointment, though in practice I haven’t known people to bother putting in extra work if their projects are reasonably getting done on time.

I'm working for a small(er) (30ish people) software company and 9am is the general start of the work day, but it's not regulated or enforced. Some people start at 8am, but I for myself start mostly around 10am, except there are some meetings before.

There are only two rules:

- get the job done

- be in the important meetings/calls

In the UK I'm 9am to 5pm, however my contract allows for unpaid overtime. Usually management are pretty good with this though, and give some unofficial time off in lieu if I have to work OT.

> my contract allows for unpaid overtime

Unless i was in serious financial trouble, or in a learning situation, i would never accept a contract that "allows for unpaid overtime".

Most of the companies i know don't allow for "paid free time", so why should i give away my time for free to increase profits for the company ?

The exception to this is of course "job salary", but i never accept those either unless i have a say in what exactly makes up the "job" part, and i usually tell the employer that "job salary" goes both ways, so if i'm done with my job Wednesday afternoon, i'll say "enjoy your weekend" and be back next monday. That's when we usually agree on paid overtime :)

>>Unless i was in serious financial trouble, or in a learning situation, i would never accept a contract that "allows for unpaid overtime".

At least in the UK the law specifically forbids working more than 48 hours a week, so it's pretty common to see contracts where you opt out of this regulation. Not because the company even intends to make you work overtime, but because if you happened to work more, even entirely out of your own free will, you could still sue the company for working more than 48 hours in a week. So it's a very common thing to add in contracts here.

It's funny. A regulation, that you can opt out of, with an adhesion contract.

You can also opt back into the working time directive.

In Berlin the normal start time is 10am

Unless you are at a German non-startup company. Then you have people rolling in at 6-7am even in the winter.

I bet they leave early too and go pick up their kids.

9-5 is pretty common in the US and UK companies. Dolly Parton had a song about it...

Except that now it is generally 9-6 :(

I start at 10am but used eat lunch at my desk. It was mainly to avoid the London tube rush hour in the mornings.

Every single software team I've worked in or heard of in the USA? ;) Usually it's tied to the first meeting, I have a mind-destroying train wreck of a "scrum" 3 times a week at 11am so it doesn't make any sense to start before 11. When I used to wake up early consistently in a different team I tried to move the morning scrum to 7am, or maybe 8am, or maybe come on 9:30am?! But people weren't buying it. Meetings before 10am are only scheduled in extreme circumstance.

When I worked in Austria and Germany, most employees started between 6:00 and 8:00 AM at the latest. Although there was nothing against coming in after 9:00 AM due to flex-time, it would guarantee you'd miss all the morning coffee chit-chat with internal company gossip and by the time you'd leave work and head to the city, the shops would already be close to closing.

Yeah that's the other thing. A lot of shops and agencies close at 5pm, so if your come in to work at 10am and work until 6pm? Everything is closed once you leave, good luck getting anything done after work.

If you come in at work at 10am you might have as well done that trip to the shop/agency before coming to work.

Unfortunately not because most shops in Germany opened at 10am. It's much better nowadays in that AG least grocery stores are open to 10pm.

then come in earlier, i guess?

Nowadays absolutely, at least for groceries. Then again I don't live there any longer :) Back when I was a kid? Not so much.

Just looked it up. They were actually allowed to open from 7a.m. but at least where we lived, the regular shops in the city would only open at 10a.m. Shops were allowed to open until 6:30p.m. and not sure how long they actually did.

We only had one car and lived too far from a large grocery store that would carry everything and at proper prices to walk/bike for larger volumes. So we only did them when my dad was home and could drive us (mostly - I do remember having to bike there from time to time).

But usually it meant doing it on Saturdays. Shops were allowed to open until 2p.m. on Saturdays and closed on Sundays. We definitely made use of the "long Saturday" - one Saturday per month, they were allowed to open to 6p.m.

There are 10 kinds of developers in the world...

Those who like to start their day mid morning and those who like to start their day early morning. To accommodate everyone a lot of companies use a standard "core time" of 10-2 where everyone needs to be in the office.

It's sad that different chronotypes aren't taken into account for work schedules. There are many an individual contributor, and manager, who naturally outperform outside of the usual 9-5 framework. Formally it's called Delayed Sleep Phase Syndrome (DSPS). Practically these are the people whose ancestors were guarding the tribe keeping it safe at night.

There's no company policy mandating me to start that early yet I start between 7am and 7:30am, by 8am the office is mostly full.

The earlier you start the more daylight left to enjoy at the end of the day. 9am really sounds awfully late. People who start at 9 don't enjoy their morning any more than I do. They just wake up later. And it forces them to stay longer in the evening while I'm out taking advantage of the extra day light to do outdoor activities.

Indeed.

I've seen some companies that clock the hours you're "in the building" and allow coming up early to leave early.

What happens in practice is that some people will come in early, start working early, and leave early. Some other people will check-in early, enjoy the office-provided amenities in the empty office, and actually start working when the rest of the team gets in the office.

Some smarter company just ask you to check-in before, say, 10 am and don't care when you leave (either early or late -- and don't require you to check-out explicitly by passing the badge) -- it's up to you and your boss/manager: as long as you meet the deadline, leave as soon or as late as you see fit.

I'm with you 100%. I'm usually the first one in the office (well, pre-COVID anyway) and the first one to leave. Anecdotally, it's same since we started working from home - I usually try to start around 7-7:30am, and I generally don't start getting replies from coworkers until 8:30am or later.

I see a lot of threads and comments about starting at 9-10am, and I don't understand it. I'm usually eating lunch at 11am and done with work by 3:30pm. It's so nice! The few times I've had to work until 5-6pm have been awful for me. I feel like I don't really have any time to really DO anything before bed.

>People who start at 9 don't enjoy their morning any more than I do.

I am a morning person which means I really treasure my morning coffee and jazz music and reading time. I wake up at 7am and enjoy two sweet hours of a cold, dreamy morning before starting work fresh at 9am.

I am a night person which means I really treasure my nightly herbal tea and hip hop music and comic book time. I take a hot shower at 10pm before wandering into bed sleepy at 10:45pm.

None of this is rigid but I just feel like you are making super subjective arguments about a person's choice in time to work and sleep and live their life.

I would usually be able to make it to work by 9:00am. That's coz of when I could drop the kids off at school and then catch the train. Since covid they don't have morning supervision any longer. Thanks to covid the office is closed anyway but if it was open and they'd require even 9am never mind earlier, then my next words are "Bye bye".

That said even once Covid restrictions are over forget me coming to the office every day of the week. I enjoy my life way too much to let that be taken away again. Yes I moved out here by choice and chose to take the longer commute over city life, I do realize that. But I really don't get what the problem would be with just meeting at the office like once a week or whenever 'needed' with your team instead of being forced to go and partake in all the social banter that kills concentration.

Ah, so if you're doing an 8 hour day you leave at 3PM (if you skip lunch)?

Our normal start time is before 9 am and many people start work much earlier; the company is on the Fortune 100 Best Places to work list.

It is similar in Poland. Here most colleagues can start between 6-9am and finish between 14-17. This is inclusive of a formal 30 minute lunch break and 10 minute breaks every 1 hour. (In practice most people just take 1 hour lunch instead). I enjoy this because I have much more time outside of the office to enjoy my life.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com