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Comment by martinald | Hacker News Reader

Moving from London to Lisbon was surprising. Rental costs were cheaper, but not as much as I expected.

The main problem I found was the housing stock is in pretty terrible shape. Flats have basically no insulation and often have bad problems with damp. No insulation means the flats are freezing in winter and you can hear the neighbors do everything.

While eating out is definitely significantly cheaper, many things are (much) more expensive than in London. Supermarkets, home internet, cell service (brutally expensive), utilities (I was paying 10x for utilities in winter compared to London, because of the complete lack of insulation - and Portugal has some of the highest electricity rates in Europe).

Overall I would not suggest moving to Lisbon if you are expecting an overall significantly lower cost of living than London. There are lots of other benefits though :).

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I am Portuguese and line in London and I can tell you that you can find quote terrible housing in London too. When I am looking at does like Zoopla, Rightmove... I need to filter out 90% of the results. From lack of basic appliances, to almost no windows, miniscule studios, badly maintained Victoria era houses, lack of modern buildings... You just need to pay more to get what you want, don't expect good quality when you go for the low end of the market.

I agree thermal isolation is a bigger issue in Portugal though. Because really cold days are not that common, old constructions don't have proper isolation and rely on inneficient heating. In the UK however you have the opposite problem where almost no apartment is ready for warm days. A flat with air conditioning is a rarity. Last summer a friend of mine moved with his kids to a hotel for a week during the heat wave just because of this.

Yes I definitely agree with you - obviously terrible housing everywhere. London now has many built to rent firms though with purpose built brand new fairly high spec buildings, so it's easy to go to them rather than trawl through loads of Zoopla listings. Me and my friend who moved to Lisbon recently found it very different. I have up and got a fairly average apartment, my friends apartment is a lot nicer but he's paying more and did nearly 30 viewings. It still has problems with noise insulation and is extremely cold in winter despite being virtually brand new refurbished.

I do agree with you on air conditioning in the UK though, for sure.

> and you can hear the neighbors do everything.

I'm in a rental for this month, and I just woke up to this - noise of a baby playing with balls on the floor, above my bedroom.

I am surprised this is still a problem in the 21st century.

By the time you know this is the case in your flat, it's too late to do anything about it. Other than wait a year, then move into another flat which may have the same problem.

Market forces don't work for hidden features like this, so why would it ever change?

This is why people want to live in detached houses - after years of psychological torture from living in cheaply built or badly designed flats.

Coming from the UK and having had mold/damp in every place I've rented, I was surprised to see that were actually somewhere in the middle when comparing self-reported damp with other countries in Europe (pdf):

https://www.euro.who.int/__data/assets/pdf_file/0005/97007/3...

Would you say that the places are close in overall monthly expenses then? I would surprised to read how that those utilities are that much more expensive. I've been to Lisbon in December and remember it being quite mild and warm. Does the damp cold set in later then? I would love to hear what the other benefits you enjoy about living there.

Yeah. The difference is you are going to be living in central Lisbon vs zone 2-3 London for roughly the same price. Obviously you are going to save a fortune going from prime central london to Lisbon, but that's the same anywhere.

The cold is really the buildings fault. It's hard to explain it you are used to northern European construction. It seems to be colder inside than out! It's quite a common and well talked about problem.

What is good: weather, people, interesting places to visit 30min-1hr away, food, etc. What you'd expect really.

> There are lots of other benefits though :)

Ok, go ahead with them?

Without being an expert of Portugal, I would venture: food, weather, and people’s attitudes to life.

Food is great. Weather is better than UK but perhaps not as much as you'd think especially in coastal areas and winter.

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