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Comment by coder543 | Hacker News Reader

Apple still charges that kind of premium on RAM even on the Intel Mac mini where you can replace the RAM.

People still pay it, because most people probably don't know the RAM is replaceable, don't want to be bothered with doing it themselves, don't want to accidentally damage their new computer, don't realize the upgrade prices are high, or other reasons.

Apple has always charged high premiums for upgrades... premium upgrades aren't a strategy they suddenly invented when they started soldering components down.

Apple has reasons for soldering down components, reasons which I don't really agree with, but I don't think they're all that worried about a small percentage of people avoiding their upgrade prices.

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> premium upgrades aren't a strategy they suddenly invented when they started soldering components down.

What you wrote is only a part of the story. Another one happens after using the computer for couple of years. RAM and SSD prices are declining over time, while software developers are finding exciting new ways to use more of them.

It’s more profitable for Apple when users replacing entire computers than just RAM + SSD. Unlike the initial premium upgrades, users have more motivation. Warranty’s expired, and the price difference is way larger.

> It’s more profitable for Apple when users replacing entire computers than just RAM + SSD.

Are there any hard cold data on how often a mac user gets a new laptop vs a pc user? It would also be interesting to see how common it is for pc users to add ram/disk during their pc:s lifetime.

I've only just got a new Mac after having my last one for nearly a decade. I've had to replace two windows machines in that same time period. Not exactly cold hard data, but a sample size of 1.

There are also windows machines that make it hard to replace things mind you.

Same with me and a lot of people I Know. Macs are so reliable (in general, don’t want to get into a debate as a lot of viruses don’t target them as Windows is larger) that upgrading is not required for a long time.

It may change in the future if Apple introduces planned obsolescence, but so far no issues

Counterpoint: it's a lot more wasteful, especially for desktops, to own Apple. Look at all the iMacs with recent, high quality 5K monitors that'll be scrapped, as they can't be used with another video source.

Such a waste.

Unless you need a monster dedicated GPU, you could get a Mac Mini. Or if you need GPU power and you have money to burn, you could get a Mac Pro. No screens attached.

Yet they stopped packaging accessories with the iPhone to help save the environment lol.

I love my Macs but Apple definitely are not environment focused, for the reasons you state

Having done over a decade of desktop support for several companies, both apple and windows shops. This notion that Macs are more reliable doesn't hold water for me. If we compare devices on the same price scale (premium category) as macbooks, amongst thousands of devices, we actually found them to last the same length without any upgrades (6-10years average)

What a lot of people neglect to consider is that non-Apple brands have an entire "budget" category that Apple does not participate in. It's wrong to compare this category with devices of another category, no matter the make and model.

Fair point

I just upgraded my 2015 Macbook Pro with a 2TB SSD and a new battery. I'm planning to keep using it for a few years.

The 2015 MBPs were the last ones that had replaceable drives (it's a proprietary slot, but adaptors to M2 are available).

I still think that the 2015 models are the last laptops Apple actually targeted at pro users. They even added support for PCI NVMe drives in a recent macOS version, so these MBPs got MORE EXPANDABLE after release. It's crazy! (It does have soldered-on RAM though)

The only comparable recent Mac was the 2018 Mac mini -- with user upgradable RAM! It does have soldered on flash, unfortunately. But it has so many ports, and with external thunderbolt enclosures you can add GPUs, SSD Raids, ... It's pretty amazing for a small desktop and surprisingly usable as a developer workstation.

(I'm not counting the current Mac Pro because it is so outrageously expensive that I can't imagine that it makes sense for anyone except the most highest paid professsionals)

My 2012 MacBook Pro is still going strong! Use it daily. Upgraded to a 1TB SSD, 16GB RAM and I sincerely hope it'll last a few more years - still on Mojave though. I boot into Crapolina to do App Store work from a USB SSD, but will probably upgrade to Big Sour at some point with the horrendous menubar spacing.

I type this on my work MacBook where I've had to press backspace so many times due to the shift key not working and the i key repeating itself, with the touchbar flashing constantly next to the power button.... the battery has a worse rating too even though it's a 2016 versus my 2012. I hate this keyboard.

I agree with you but I also think that part of it is:

- If you make the SSD replaceable, many more people will replace theirs.

- Apple doesn't want to put an SSD access port into their laptops for design/strength/reliability reasons.

- Replacing the SSD would therefore entail people disassembling the computer.

- Apple doesn't want people disassembling the computer

* solution = solder it onto the motherboard.

- If you make the SSD replaceable, many more people will replace theirs.

Very few non technical consumers, which is the vast majority, ever upgrade their computer.

Which means designing in an affordance for it adds a cost for a feature used by a few.

They have the "pro" line for a reason. It's meant for professionals. It's okay to solder RAM and SSD in lower-end models I suppose, but not in those people actually use to get their job done.

I must agree with this. About a year ago, our company's iOS development team was replaced. The managers bought the new developers company MBPs. However, after about six months they started complaining that they could not make progress on one feature because Xcode kept crashing when they opened an existing Storyboard file. Turns out the managers had of course cheaped out and bought the developers Macs with the lowest 8GB memory option. Meanwhile, the consultants who originally created those files had had much more sensible 32GB.

Now the MBPs for the whole team need to be replaced at great cost and double the environmental resource use. Without Apple soldering the memory our IT department would have certainly just upgraded the memory. In fact, when I ran into similar issue with needing 32GB to my 16GB Dell laptop, that's exactly what we did.

Or they could have just bought the max version the first go around. If it's for production the +$1k/dev is less than a few days of pay.

Apple can decrease environmental cost of early replacing MBP by not providing chargers, like they did with iPhones.

Oh, great, yes, that is certainly going to have a huge impact.

Because the chargers are known to have a huge impact because of all the rare earth in them.

I'm not the kind of person who throws electronics away, but, you know, there's a proven and reliable way to decrease the environmental cost: don't make your damn devices disposable. Design them to be taken apart and make consumable components easily replaceable by the end user. But I guess non-disposable devices don't make charts go up as much as disposable ones do.

Case in point: the M1 Mac Mini internals are half electronics, half air. They could've easily fit all kinds of slots and modular components in there, yet they deliberately decided not to.

> double the environmental resource use

I mean, they're not defective, they can be refurbished.

Theoretically yes, if they were for example managed by a leasing company.

In this case, the company actually only officially supports (leases) Windows laptops. Macs should not officially exist to start with, but are nevertheless required for iOS app development. So MBPs are handled as "extra" IT equipment. If there is no use for such a piece of IT equipment (e.g. it is underpowered or otherwise not fit for purpose) AND it contains sensitive business data (like a developer computer almost certainly does), it is actually a security issue for the company.

So for security reasons the company would actually prefer that such computer be DESTROYED when there is no use for it anymore. Sadly you can not even remove the hard drive from a MBP and sell/give it to a employee for personal use, so Apple soldering the components on the mainboard is a double whammy.

Don't recent Apple computers have hardware encryption by default through the T2 chip? Just throw away the key and all data on disk should be irretrievable. Replacing the disk in this case would add no security, so it would be the wasteful course of action.

Company policies don't care about crypo used I guess.

I guess more like they don't have a contract with Apple that says Apple guarantees the data security is protected by their tech.

Ah, fair enough.

2015 and earlier MacBook Pros had replaceable SSD drives. Remove 10 pentalobe screws, take off bottom panel, remove 1 torx screw, pull out SSD, put new SSD in, reassemble, done.

The soldered on stuff is a recent change, and it's stupid for things like RAM, but even more stupid for things that wear like SSDs.

> People still pay it

Not everyone does. There is even a thriving market for such kinds of user replaceable upgrade proving that more and more people were opting to do the upgrades from reliable third-parties than Apple.

As I said:

> Apple has reasons for soldering down components, reasons which I don't really agree with, but I don't think they're all that worried about a small percentage of people avoiding their upgrade prices.

while i don’t think many of us are used to thinking at scale, any percentage of apple’s customers making literally any choice about something that purchase from apple, is a f-ton of money.

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