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Comment by SamBam | Hacker News Reader

Separate issue, but I find Google's end of life policy for Chromebooks baffling. Chrome OS will not update or get any new security patches on any device (made by any vendor) after the device's Auto Update Expiration date. It doesn't matter if the hardware is more-than-capable of running the updated ChromeOS.

Since this is, of course, tied to the Chrome browser on the computer, this means that there is no way for a six-year-old Chromebook to safely browse the web.

How is this justifiable, in terms of security?

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>but I find Google's end of life policy for Chromebooks baffling.

Brought to you by the smartphone ecosystem. Smartphones are the most successful computers ever, but could a computer manufacturer pull off arbitrary update schedule, locked boot-loader and among other nonsense a decade ago? Now this has seeped into personal computers.

>this means that there is no way for a six-year-old Chromebook to safely browse the web. How is this justifiable, in terms of security?

Neither does in iOS, especially in iOS since all browsers are Safari WebViews and So once OS updates stop it becomes dangerous to even browse the web. 7 year old android can receive latest Firefox, but it's highly likely it never received a single OS upgrade in its lifetime.

> Brought to you by the smartphone ecosystem. Smartphones are the most successful computers ever, but could a computer manufacturer pull off arbitrary update schedule, locked boot-loader and among other nonsense a decade ago? Now this has seeped into personal computers.

For sure, the PC were the exception.

If you wanted any updates on 8 and 16 bit home computers, you would buy a new computer.

OEMs have learned that the PC was a mistake (from their point of view) and except for the surviving desktops, we are back into the 80's.

The iPhone 5s received a security update last month, so it is in it's eighth year of security updates.

Five years longer than Google has supported it's own first party Pixel phones.

This doesn't help your 6 year old Chromebook, but going forward Google is going to update Chrome independently of Chrome OS.

I understand your frustration though. I love ten inch laptops. That's about the perfect size for my use. I've got a 5.5 year old 10 inch Asus Flip Chromebook that still runs perfectly, but hasn't received updates since last Spring / Summer. There's really nothing else on the market, short of a iPad Pro 11 in a laptop-hinged case, that could replace it.

>I love ten inch laptops

You might like the Lenovo Duet: https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/lenovo/student-chromebo...

End of life 2028. Comes sooner than you think.

I thought of the Duet after writing my comment. I actually bought one when it was super cheap at Best Buy. I like it. The size is perfect. But I wish there was an optional hinged keyboard for it to turn it into a semi-proper laptop. Hoping it's selling well enough for Lenovo, or some third party, to make that accessory.

I got the kid a Chromebook for school. Now Google Meet says that the browser is too old to use most of the features. Netflix puts up a notice that the browser is too old. Etc.

Once the school year is over and she doesn't need it all the time I plan on replacing ChromeOS with Linux of some flavor.

> Netflix puts up a notice that the browser is too old.

Whoa. I guess some DRM scheme is forcing their hand?

I'm surprised because on Mac you can still use Netflix in Snow Leopard, if you install Silverlight and use the ancient built-in version of Safari. Netflix's support page seems to imply this will even work on Tiger, although I haven't tried it. https://help.netflix.com/en/node/23742

Netflix still seems to work perfectly fine in both Chromebooks I have (one dell that is perhaps 2 or 3 years old, and one HP that is about 6 months). Netflix experience is identical on each (but the Dell's screen sucks) - don't think DRM has anything to do here.

I think what he/she meant is that the Widevine DRM that Chrome uses likely has multiple versions, and Netflix may require the most recent versions to view its content.

Yes, that's what I was imagining must be going on, if it indeed doesn't work as SamBam said. I just can't see why else they'd support ten-year-old Macs but not a (presumably) much newer Chromebook.

You should check if your device can run a third party ChromeOS distribution that is still updated, like Cloudready. That's what I did with my Asus CN60 that would otherwise have become a doorstop without security patches and it runs perfectly.

This model uses ARM. There's only one alternative to the default ChromeOS on the Flip: Arch, which has an extensive writeup about this model on their wiki. Pity it's not Intel, or I'd have a wide variety of options.

Cloudready is great though. I've tried it on multiple machines and had great results every time. Still hoping for a Cloudready Pi port now that Google owns Cloudready.

> How is this justifiable, in terms of security?

It isn't.

Chromebooks are primarily aimed at the .edu market. I assume there must be some data that a Chromebook rarely survives up to it's End of Life data.

But with Windows 10 running on ARM, who knows, we might soon be able to install a real OS on these devices!

> soon be able to install a real OS

Good news, you already can: https://www.debian.org/ports/arm/#status

Linux support for Chromebooks is nowhere near as good as it used to be. I spent way too long trying to get sound working on a C302 with Ubuntu before giving up and going back to ChromeOS, and that's even got an x86 processor. I can't begin to imagine how bad the ARM ones are.

Would be good biz for a company (ubuntu) to setup Linux distribution to support security monitor/update for schools for some model of Chromebooks for $500-1k per school?

Not really.

Chrome OS already ships out of the box for these devices. At a cost of 0$.

And, and this is just me speculating, I don't think a lot of Chromebooks are still bootable 6 years from their release due to, well, being used by students who don't care much for them.

> Chromebooks are primarily aimed at the .edu market. I assume there must be some data that a Chromebook rarely survives up to it's End of Life data.

If it's aimed at the .edu market I think there might be some textbook "Nth edition" artificial obsolescence jealousy feeding it.

>> How is this justifiable, in terms of security?

>It isn't.

Neither is it in terms of environmental impact.

Neither is it in terms of consumer rights.

There ought to be laws to ensure there is a defined and working path out of the garbage google operating system software stack to something that will be supported at the minumum. Still if you bought the device because you need the google garbage you get burned. So probably a giant "expiry date" on the lid announcing when the device will become unsupported so you can see the maximum useful life remaining of the device as originally sold at all times.

It's the sort of insane "but with a computer" that terminates all thought by politicians, public servants and most consumers so it gets a total end-run pass around all of our generally accepted modes of commerce that nobody would accept in any other field.

The inevitable car analogy. "We decline to make replacement brakepads anymore so you must now replace the entire interior and controls of your car to use something third party or drive completely unsafely." Just nuts. Linux and Firefox get security updates done for you for no cost if you're a vendor. Treating customer safety and public with contempt really should have consequences in computing as it does in literally every other field of commerce.

Since a lot of these are purchased by institutional buyers, it would be completely possible to mandate EOL policy by writing some legislation.

I've also wondered if a large enough school district could design it's own Chromebook to make them repairable. Having the display, chassis, logic board, disk, IO shield, keyboard/trackpad and battery be easy to disassemble. The idea being that when a machine gets damaged it's used to scavenge spare parts and rebuild complete machines.

Logic boards would most probably be updated to a newer revision over-time, and machines would silently get upgraded as they break, so you wouldn't even have to keep Chrome OS working any longer than it does now.

But this would pretty much require a California-sized district to agree to use the same model and buy them together. I don't see it happening.

> Neither is it in terms of consumer rights.

Is there a right to (free) software updates? Should one be there? How long should the mandated updates/support last?

There's an implied right that the goods are fit for purpose for their lifespan. I don't think a lack of security because they stop offering /any/ updates at /any/ price is resulting in machines fit for purpose.

Updates should last as long as they say on the tin (eg "the lifespan of this laptop expires in jan 2022") when you buy it and it should be noted in bold that the machine should be considered unusable after that date.

Some of the EOLed devices are commodity x86 hardware and can run the latest Linux distros or Windows 10 if the bootloader is unlocked, which really shows how arbitrary Google's end of life policy is.

> How is this justifiable, in terms of security?

Or in terms of e-waste ...

This is where you replace ChromeOS for linux and live a happy life.

Chromebooks come with published EOL dates before you buy. Is there another platform that has a better policy? My Pixelbook Go has a 6-year life. If I buy an iMac right now, Apple will only say it gets updates "for years to come". How many years?

Probably 5 years, since it's still an Intel version at the moment which will be phased out for Mx based Mac. If you would buy the latest MBP 13" M1 I think at least 8 years.

That's just you hand-waving. Does Apple or any other computer maker offer an explicit end-of-updates policy?

Apple has a hard-cutoff of seven years for hardware support:

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201624

Not as clear for software (Mac OS) updates.

Well it's based upon the previous architecture transitions they had as well as the average official support you get on most machines. Also the support is for current and last version so you can stick around at least another year on a fully supported previous version after you got cut off.

Nobody else makes specific promises, however with the exception of some very poorly thought out computers, most x86/amd64 Windows PCs that sold with Windows 7 or later are still supported by Windows 10, and will continue to be. Exceptions are generally those machines that had very little disk space (mostly Atom based netbooks); there may be a few other cases here and there; systems built on traditional hard drives will run poorly with Windows 10, but are still generally supported.

Regardless of upgrades, Microsoft has generally made OS support commitments that are pretty clear, although they've often been extended, so you didn't necessarily have correct and complete information when you purchased; but supported until X, but possibly later is a lot better in my mind than supported until X and then abandoned, even if it's the same hardware as something else that continues to be supported.

The way Microsoft supports your hardware is with stable driver APIs, but they don't and can't tell you that third parties like Dell will ship timely updates to their defective drivers and firmware. Microsoft did not until very recently (November 2020!) start offering EOL dates for their own Surface products, and they offer 4 years.

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