The largest library of historical European martial arts books and manuscripts
wiktenauer.com
wiktenauer.com
A couple years ago I discovered a great blog on this history which can be found at http://worksofchivalry.com/ Maybe they need to connect?
Second possibility is that it was not so much about military secrets, but rather social class, as horsemanship was a generally required skill for nobility and these skills were taught as part of a "gentleman's" education. This was up until the time that European nobility began the intermarriage process with new moneyed classes, the related economic phenomena of companies such as East India, and the related military matters of colonizing (something new for Europe) far flung lands. Those changes to social order and military requirements likely gave us the impetus for "commoners" on horses; i.e. scaling the officer class ranks beyond aristocracy. Your Dom Duarte's timeline fits well with that speculation.
[1] https://www.warhistoryonline.com/featured/caesars-elite-germ...
I think it's very much worth considering preservation bias. For example looking at wikitaneur as a whole (so mostly one on one, on foot combat), there's basically no material from before the 1400s.
https://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Category:Mounted_Fencing
A classic one is from Von Danzig: https://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Pseudo-Peter_von_Danzig#Mounted_...
People have been researching this since the early 2010s: https://youtu.be/AYxZcZE0Yyk (HEMAC Dijon 2013)
What was not true?
Edit: ah, so their mounted fencing category includes Duarte's book, and other horsemanship books outside the cannon.
My bad, you're right – I didn't catch the context of the whole post:
> There is a significant gap in writing on it between Xenophon's horsemanship and cavalry general treatises, and the 14th C. king Dom Duarte's book on horsemanship
That being said, the earliest European work that can be called a martial treatise is the MS I.33 from 1320, so it kinda matches.
Can't say how much is accurate or true, but that's history for you.
Zen and the Art of Destrier Maintenance?
All we had were a few early transcriptions, some pretty bad English translations of a few more popular works and that's it.
To get the good stuff you had to talk to people on international seminars and internet forums and do your own transcriptions and dig out library scans.
A huge shout out to Dierk Hagedorn from Hammaborg for providing the one of the first quality Early > Modern German translations for some of Liechtenauer's works.
I was pleasantly surprised to see this link up on HN.
Which leads me to the same question I had at that moment: how reliable are these techniques in a real-life setting? We know that Andre Lignitzer was a great sword master, but how often did he face attackers trying to stab him in the face?
The fact that the same techniques keep showing up in different martial arts gives me hope that they must be at least good. Still, it would be great to have first person accounts of how these techniques fare in real life. As this guy [2] points out, a real-life knife fight is probably not as easy as one thinks.
But to answer your question, many martial artists train with weapons. It's fairly easy to use a dummy knife to simulate real combat without harming anyone. And many fighters throughout history would have trained with weapons to simulate real combat. I cannot speak for these knife techniques in particular because that was never my specialty, but there are plenty of legitimate techniques out there. In terms of what they are teaching in self defense classes, I find that a very mixed bag. Some focus strictly on tricks that seem cool to the untrained, but are hard to pull off in real life without a great deal of practice, while some instructors take a more realistic approach (be aware, have a plan, use a minimum of physical technique to extricate yourself as quickly as possible)
I think that is a bit overdramatic. I would say, most of the time when a knifes come, nothing happens, except for exchange of bad words. (seen that)
And a professional would not show his knife. The great advantage and danger of a knife is, that it is a hidden weapon. Revealed (and used) only in the right moment, if necessary - as a surprise.
And self-defense against a knife. Well, the basics are actually quite easy - if you see a enemy with a knife - grab a stick. Or a chair. Or a rock. Keep distance.
Only if you are really superior trained and you face against a drunken idiot for example, about to do something stupid against someone else - then you should consider doing some of your special moves to disarm.
But talking them out of it, should be prefered.
I guess I should have used the words "attacked with a knife". My point is that movie combat where an armed attacker is quickly disarmed and detained is quite rare. If a weapon gets involved in combat, someone's getting hurt. Even if you grab a chair, etc. it's still likely one of you are getting hurt, even if you win.
Which brings us back around to the core point that I think we agree on: don't get involved in a knife fight, or really any fight if it can be avoided.
"if in a close combat situation a knive gets drawn, it is very likely that someone will get cut"
would have been the wordy formal correct version ;)
How likely are you to use them in an actual confrontation though? Probably not likely, you would have to be put in a situation where other forms of neutralizing the situation are not possible (this includes running the fuck away); and at that point, primary importance is having a very limited set of general techniques that can be applied in multiple situation with the weapon so that through practice and training it's more of an autonomic function of your body (you don't want the lag of having to 'think' about which technique to use); secondary importance is experience with these situations - i.e. one of the marital arts groups I worked with would have us go to, and shoot at, a firing range so that we were used to the sounds that a gun would make at close range so that we were used to it in the unenviable case of being in that situation.
Generally, disarm techniques are going to be extremely similar, but with any sharp object it's going to be - expect to get cut, deflect with non-vital parts of your body (such as the outsides of your arms, not the supple insides of your wrists), and neutralize the weapon as quickly and safely as possible. Some martial arts systems even have scarf techniques for doing disarms with soft objects from a distance (it's super cool seeing someone do a gun disarm with a cloth/scarf).
Don't try that in real life, though. And definitely not against a person who know what he's doing. Unless you really have no choice and are about to be beheaded by Taliban or alike.
And to the technics from the Book, well, from first glance they seem to work. But the description seems very static. "when the enemy does this, you do this - and then this and then this".
Well, doing so is a good practice to get a feel for what is possible - but never try to do that exactly in a real combat. Because a real situation is always more complex. Nobody is ever moving like in a book. There are variations. In speed, in position and in a fraction of a second the enemy knive can move another way. There are obstacles around you (that can also be weapons to throw or just distract). There are often other people around who complicate or ease things. There is the sun that can blind the oponent, or you, etc. etc.
If a technique shows up in various treaties from multiple countries, and cultures, it is quite likely legit in its context. Also funny how similar, equal even, HEMA wrestling and Japanese Jiu-Jitsu is. Not surprising, both thing are a solution to the problem going close with someone with a bladed weapon.
Martial arts is about raising the probability of your opponent dying before you. So if two people had knives, the person trained with knife fighting would more than likely be better off than the person who didn’t have raining.
... but what’s also been taught in different schools of Kung Fu, is if they have a knife and you don’t have anything - run!
Which for those who don't know, are as effective, varied, and storied as the currently-more-famous Asian martial arts.
But unlike the Asian martial arts they were forgotten and died out sometime into the age of firearms in the 16th - 17th century (although several sword-fighting forms survived to the 20th century).
And its funny you mention Patton's manual, WWI was probably the last time a sword was considered a practical fighting weapon except in rare circumstances. Even the bayonet started a gradual decline then.
Chinese internal alchemy is a bit different though; it's more like the martial art is the alchemical process itself, with the practitioners body being the reagent/substance. This looks more like alchemy being used in creating weapons.
I believe that is often credited to Col. Jeff Cooper, or at least for popularizing it.
There are definitely use cases where an under 6 pound short barrel rifle is going to be more effective than a pistol in close quarters though.
Some people think that getting into the Olympics is the worst thing that ever happened to Judo. I am inclined to agree with them.