Comment by patio11 | Hacker News Reader

Comment by patio11 | Hacker News Reader

This was somewhat surprising to me, but appears that he was accurately quoted the law. If you go through the flowchart on the State Department's website for the Visa Waiver Program, which would be my #1 suggestion for someone coming from the Netherlands,

For the purpose of the Visa Waiver Program, "business" generally refers to business activities other than the performance of skilled or unskilled labor. Examples of activities that are allowed include: engaging in international commercial transactions, which do not involve gainful employment in the United States (such as a merchant who takes orders in the U.S. for goods manufactured abroad, or who travels to the U.S. to purchase American-made goods for export from the U.S.); negotiating contracts; consulting with business associates; and participating in scientific, educational, professional or business conventions, conferences, or seminars.

The performance of any skilled or unskilled labor - even if it is unpaid - is most always prohibited. This includes performing work in the U.S. as a trainer or consultant. Activities allowed on the VWP parallel those activities allowed with a standard "B1" category business visa. Please see our B visa information page for more details.

Working visas are, as stated, not exactly trivial to get. (And if you're already at the airport it is too late.)

I continue to be astonished that anyone still comes to the USA without either a specific rule allowing his activity (e.g. tourism, negotiating contracts) or a consultation with a US immigration lawyer.

Aren't there enough horror stories? Isn't the craziness well known abroad?

In most of the world people who want to be tourists in the USA dread the extensive and humiliating application interview, questionnaire, and documentation process just to get a visa. The same is required to change planes at a US airport.

The process is byzantine and irrational. Read all the available documents and hire a lawyer if anything seems uncertain.

The border authorities routinely retain old documents, especially those submitted in error, and use them in a Kafkaesque process to deny all future permissions. Every thing you say or send to the government can be reinterpreted and used against you forever. It would be best to consult a lawyer every time you interact with CBP, though that would be expensive.

Is this any different from other countries? I'm just surprised you expect to go to any first-world country and work without a permit. For a very broad definition of work. London requires a visa for even changing planes. The paperwork for having your parents visit is even more onerous, I'm told. If you have a small child you're required to hire a nanny before they'll let your parents visit. So yeah all immigration authorities are moronic.

OP said he's travelled all over the EU. Well, I assume he has an EU passport?

> Is this any different from other countries?

Very much so. Here in Italy for instance, I've known several people who have spent years here illegally, performing useful work. Sure, Italy has a large underground economy in any case, but still...

I think the key here is "illegally". He could have marked, "Tourist" on his visa application and he would have been let in, but he didn't.

I've marked business on my visa waiver customs form and the border officer has written WT (Waiver Tourist) on my passport around 50% of the time.

Sometimes I've been asked a barrage of questions (company i'm working for, goods in my possession, amount of money in cash, amount of credit available to me, etc.), other times, not a single question. The whole process can seem very hit and miss depending on the customs officer you are getting and the mood they are in.

As much as I love the US, it does feel these days as though they are segregating themselves from the rest of the business world. I had to queue at O'Hare (Chicago) for over 2.5hrs after a 8.5hr flight to get to the customs desk on my recent visit - how is this acceptable in any first world country?

2.5 hrs, you are lucky. The last time I came in from Amsterdam to Chicago apparently 6 or 7 other planes landed as well, and they only had 6 booths open to handle the traffic. I was in line for 6 hours, luckily my layover in Chicago was 10 hours for my flight to Denver, but it was insane... people did come by with water bottles ... FOR SALE.

Lying on your visa application is a punishable offense. It is written right there on the form.

Crossing the street against the light is a punishable offense. Giving a friend an MP3 is a punishable offense.

The rules are meant to be ignored.

In this case the punishment is potentially much more severe and there is no statute of limitations. The rules badly require changing, but ignoring them is unwise.

Jaywalking is not an offense where I live. You can't be even fined for that.

I thought WildUtah was complaining about stupid laws, not 'undocumented features' like lax enforcement.

I think that coming to Italy to do a course would absolutely not be a problem. They might hassle you for some taxes or something, but I can't see them simply turning you around at the airport.

Yeah, you can't stay for a year and work without getting the relevant documentation, and they'll probably look more closely if you come from, say, Kenya (you'd probably need a visa), rather than the US, but... still, I think things in the US are particularly fucked up.

For instance: for me to live in Italy legally, I have to be married to my wife - full stop. For my wife to go to the US, she has to spend hundreds of dollars, travel to various US embassies, submit to a medical examination, and spend lots of time waiting. And she has a doctorate in biochemistry, is eminently employable, and is the wife and mother of US citizens.

For my wife to go to the US, she has to spend hundreds of dollars, travel to various US embassies, submit to a medical examination, and spend lots of time waiting.

[citation needed]

Look it up; I'm not exaggerating just to make some kind of political point, those are the facts.

http://travel.state.gov/visa/immigrants/types/types_2991.htm...

And beyond looking it up, we started going through the procedure several years ago, but ended up deciding to stay in Italy for the time being, so it's something I know first hand.

Here in Italy, the land of bureaucracy, it required one and only one office visit with my wife to get my "permesso di soggiorno" once we were married.

Getting one of those without being married is a huge hassle, and exposes one to the full brunt of Italian bureaucracy, but the US should be "better than that".

This thread gives the impression that the US is rather different and intrusive. "To go to the US" is as easy as flying there from a Visa Waver country. "To live in the US" is a different thing.

FWIW, a similar story can be constructed for Canada - in order to be landed immigrants, we had to go through selection by a province (submission of over an inch of paperwork, interview, months of waiting), selection by Canada (similar pile of paperwork, waiting), pay hundreds of dollars for medical exams and single-handedly support the local "passport photo" and fingerprint establishments. There were checks done by the police and both provincial and federal levels of both countries involved.

I suspect this process isn't unique to any one country. Oh and the whole process cost a few thousand dollars in government fees.

Thanks for the citation.

http://travel.state.gov/visa/immigrants/types/types_2991.htm...

I asked because my wife entered the United States on the same IR1 visa, quite a few years before you met your wife. There are fairly frequent comments here on HN by other persons advising HN participants who are thinking out loud about how to stay in the United States, and sometimes those comments include advising people to get into a sham marriage. (The link you have shared, which I have repeated here, will be helpful to onlookers who don't know the law on that subject.) That people would even consider getting into a sham marriage to stay in the United States longer, or to enter it for the first time, illustrates the overall worldwide desirability of the United States, and thus the background for the statutory and regulatory changes that have happened in issuing IR1 visas since my wife got hers. It's still my impression, as a former immigration lawyer, that the IR1 is rather a fast track to United States permanent residence and eventual citizenship compared to many other tracks that would-be immigrants pursue.

I can well understand any American desiring to stay and thrive in the country where he met the love of his life. I married overseas, and lived in my wife's country of origin for more than a year after our marriage before she ever saw any part of the United States. I feel much fondness for the country where I met my wife, which, like Italy, has thoroughly undergone the demographic transition and is on a trend eventually to decrease significantly in population. The United States, meanwhile, continues to increase in population and to enjoy net immigration in comparison to almost all other countries in the world. So while it is regrettable in individual cases that previous patterns of fraud have made IR1 visas much more burdensome to obtain than they once were, that is not surprising on policy grounds. A lot of people around the world still think that all the requirements you mention as unduly troublesome are not too much to put up with to gain the right to permanent residence and a fast track to citizenship in the United States.

Best wishes for always have a country or two in which you can enjoy life together and prosper in your chosen careers. Thanks for the link.

Just to be clear, we didn't stop the process because it was that expensive of difficult, just that we decided to stay in Italy for the immediate future. We may well restart it in the next few years. It's a pain in the neck, not an insurmountable obstacle.

That said, I guess generally,

> So while it is regrettable in individual cases that previous patterns of fraud have made IR1 visas much more burdensome to obtain than they once were, that is not surprising on policy grounds.

I am not in favor of that sort of legislation - "some people cause problems, so we'll make it hard for everyone in order to prevent, rather than punish transgressors". It's a very prevalent way of dealing with problems here in Italy, and IMO it is a drag on society. I prefer rules that are liberal, and certain (well, as much as possible) punishment for those who break them. Compared to other places (like Italy), the US is pretty good that way, by and large, even if imperfect, which makes the immigration system all the more galling.

I don't know why you're being downvoted, but I can confirm what you said, being an italian citizen myself.

That said, the first time I went to the US with a Tourist visa I couldn't believe how many questions they asked me. Most of them things like: "Are you a terrorist? Do you hate America?, and things like that". I think those questions as are stupid as they are an insult to one's intelligence. The boarder police also was doing their best to try to trick me and my friends into saying that we were there for work. There's something definitely wrong with all of this.

I understand that the US Immigration guys can be fairly hard to deal with.

But this is really not what I experienced at all. I studied at a university in the US and I hold an Indian passport. I travelled in and out of the country multiple times, but not once was I asked questions like "Are you a terrorist?". I was only held by the officials once at immigration for 20 minutes. This was when I transferred from one university to another (You don't need to re-apply for a visa for this which is why it leads to some confusion cause you are not going to the university mentioned on the visa).

I never felt like anyone was trying to trick me, or insult me, or ever asked me questions like those above.

Do they treat students differently? And has anyone else ever experienced the issues mentioned by the parent poster?

Plenty of people get treated decently, it's not like everyone in Homeland Security are evil jack-booted thugs. I suppose most of them are pretty good people doing their jobs with the rules they have to enforce.

However... the system does not work nearly as well as it should, and is based on creaky, broken rules.

Those questions appeared in a questionaire given to everyone inside the airplaine. A friend of mine told me that it wasn't the first time he saw that questionaire. It became kind of a joke after it.

Those are questions you are expected to answer in DS-160 form for nonimmigrant visa.

Some examples:

Are you coming to the United States to engage in prostitution or unlawful commercialized vice or have you been engaged in prostitution or procuring prostitutes within the past 10 years?

Have you ever been involved in, or do you seek to engage in, money laundering?

Do you seek to engage in espionage, sabotage, export control violations, or any other illegal activity while in the United States?

Do you seek to engage in terrorist activities while in the United States or have you ever engaged in terrorist activities?

Have you ever or do you intend to provide financial assistance or other support to terrorists or terrorist organizations?

Are you a member or representative of a terrorist organization?

Have you ever ordered, incited, committed, assisted, or otherwise participated in genocide?

Have you ever committed, ordered, incited, assisted, or otherwise participated in torture?

Have you committed, ordered, incited, assisted, or otherwise participated in extrajudicial killings, political killings, or other acts of violence?

Have you, while serving as a government official, been responsible for or directly carried out, at any time, particularly severe violations of religious freedom?

The UK has a visa waiver for transit passengers (they're not that idiotic, they want Heathrow to keep being the big hub that it is; you do get to talk to an officer, but you generally don't need to apply in advance). Generally UK immigration is bad (like having to turn up and give your fingerprints every time you apply for a visa, so no application by post; in my case, that means a flight of 1,100 km and back every 6 months). Here's a blog post according to which being on a dissertation defense committee also requires a work permit (according to possibly overzealous HR): http://timesonline.typepad.com/dons_life/2010/10/world-class...

Most Schengen countries are more or less straightforward per se, though I'm not sure how his case would pan out (here in Norway, according to the immigration authority's webpage, "researchers and lecturers" are exempt from the work permit requirement, though I'm not sure how broad that category is).

The UK has a visa waiver for transit passengers

Last time I checked, the waiver only applied if you were coming to/from a whitelist of countries, which included the US. In the past, I've had to explicitly avoid Heathrow because of its visa requirements (and I was just on transit)...

I think they also have a blacklist of countries for which you need a visa regardless of where you're coming/going from/to. The list includes Colombia, for example.

It's all here: http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/en/howtoapply/infs/inf20transit.

Tl;dr: there is a whitelist for transit visa waivers, so citizens of some countries need to apply for a transit visa in advance. However, you can apply from a waiver if you normally need a transit visa but you are going to/from the US, Canada, Australia or New Zealand. You can also get a waiver if you are resident in the US, Canada or EU/EEA, irrespective of your citizenship.

I hold an Indian passport and I recently got thrown out of a plane to Spain via Heathrow right before it took off. They said, I didn't have a transit visa. I was changing planes in the same terminal and the total time I was to spend in Heathrow was 2 hours.

I have a Schengen visa. No, that doesn't work for London. I begged and pleaded for hours at the gate. Nothing. The worst part is, I did the same route for years with no problem. Apparently rules changed recently.

Trust me, It really is awful being that person who gets discriminated based on where you are born.

The UK isn't part of Schengen, that's a continental Europe thing rather than covering all EU members:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area

Yeah... I learned that the hard way, too.

I can't describe how stupid I felt at that moment...

Bangkok, Buenos Aires or Sydney are not Schengen neither but they don't require a visa for airport transit. That's just politicians covering their assess in case some terrorist blows up a plane on transit flight.

Yeah the whole transit visa thing in the UK is pretty stupid. Especially when you go through terminal 5 at Heathrow. You can get out without passing an immigration officer. So why do you need a visa? Idiots.

That was supposed to be "can't get out [of the terminal] without passing an immigration officer". Sorry. :)

I feel for you. I am Italian and my wife is Thai. Just to change planes in London on the way to Mexico, she should have applied for a Visa or... "go and hope the immigration officer in London let her trough". This is actually stated, with other words, in the law. Same for the US. We could not buy a KLM ticket to Mexico from Italy because the stopover was in Los Angeles. I still wonder why they made this rule... probably terrorism. Anyway, closed countries inevitably collapse, remember the Soviet Union?

Hi, I am an indian passport holder. I have a spain national visa (issued for students)valid for 5 months and I am going back home to india but my flight is through london heathrow so do I need the airport transit visa too? I have read that I dont require it (http://www.immihelp.com/visas/nonustransit.html) but your case is exactly mine so can you please help me out here

Your best bet would be to go to the nearest airport and talk at the ticketing counter. They have a chart on who is allowed to board and who is not. In my case, my spain visa was category C which apparently requires transit visa. HTH.

I traveled for years doing business everywhere in the world and I always did it on a tourist visa: US, Australia, Europe, China, Turkey, South America even Russia (notoriously bureaucratic for these things)... anywhere. And all the people I met did the same. Business travel wouldn't probably even be possible. You've got to catch a plane and go, fast. If we start treating business people like immigrants on a boat we are doomed.

Dude, seriously? We are talking about the land of the free, and you continue to be astonished that people from first world countries just go to the US to do business and then leave again?

The Netherlands has had a visa waiver program with the US for a very long time. Since the author has entered the US a couple of times before to do very similar things, I don't blame him for just going.

I do blame the company for just paying him and expecting him to show up without checking whether that is legal.

You didnt read the fine print. free for american citizens. i dont know any country that treats non-citizens well, but there are many who treat them better.

I wonder if he could have reworded his description to something that falls under "participating in scientific, educational, professional or business conventions, conferences, or seminars."

People come to the US all the time to speak at conferences and don't have any problem, right?

Not a problem at all. I've been to the US (from the Netherlands) over a dozen times to participate in a scientific conference and have had no problem at all. Maybe some grumpiness, but that's about it.

It depends what the conference is about. Some people in the security industry have had problems, as have political dissidents.

One of the questions on a visa application is something like: "Do you plan to attempt to overthrow the Government of the United States by force or subversion?".

Political dissidents and crackers may have an issue there, if that's their stated purpose.

I always enjoyed Peter Medawar's response: "No, and if I do it by accident, I'll be very sorry"

Sure, but that's a different issue entirely.

The cases that spring immediately to mind in security tend to have more to do with the fact that conference visitors are conducting business in the US than out of any particular concern with the subject matter. People come to, say, Black Hat, and in addition to speaking also have their names attached to training courses.

Even more difficult to go to the USA to hear a talk.

You can be invited to give a paper at an international conference and be allowed in no-problem. But is there is a workshop session where somebody is being paid to give the talk you can attend it without a student visa. And you can't get a student visa unless you are attending a school - workshop talks at conference don't apply.

Everyone from overseas who goes to a paid-for session at a conference is breaking the law.

It's probably a good idea to back a bold assertion like this with a citation of some sort.

I've never heard customs actually ask this level of detail; don't people just say they're attending an academic conference? Do they ask exactly how you'll be participating in the conference?

I can believe it'd make a difference in getting a visa from a non-visa-waiver country, though; having a talk on the schedule, and a letter of invitation from the organizers, can make the application go more smoothly.

Well you can always lie to immigration and do anything you like. The real problen is if you do come from a visa-waiver country - it is almost impossible to get a visa, because everybody uses the waiver that if you try and get a business visa to attend a conference they think you must be upto something

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