Comment by GCA10 | Hacker News Reader

Comment by GCA10 | Hacker News Reader

In today's society, the desire to be noticed is easily 50x the level of anxiety about being in a surveillance state.

We could start with the nonstop, look-at-me nature of Instagram (or any other social site). They satisfy a deep craving that just keeps growing. We could marvel at the Jan. 6 rioters posting their moments in history for all to see. It's endless, and it isn't slowing down.

Yes, there's a powerful argument to be made that nonstop surveillance could work out badly. But after 15 years of seeing such pieces thunder into obscurity, rehashing the same arguments in isolation seems futile.

Anyone who wants to contribute to the conversation needs to spend serious time thinking about the reasons why so many people want strangers to know about them. It's a deep-felt desire. For a lot of people, the dread of being unknown/un-noticed/ignored is greater than the risks that come from being noticed. Once we understand why that's so, we might be able to move forward.

The wast majority of people out there have no mental capacity to imagine how data they post online and provide to various orgs could be and most likely eventually will be used against them. This is evidenced by the continuing proliferation of dumb comments along the lines of "I am boring", "I am doing nothing wrong", etc.

There is a tremendous cognitive bias in play here. The idea that because most people around you don't weaponize certain types of information means no one anywhere will ever weaponize that information, even if it is globally and indefinitely available.

Agreed that a lot of people do things that are appealing now and not so wise later. But I think we'll get farther if we talk about this as a "short horizon" problem, rather than assailing their mental capacity.

It's all a variant of "candy today; diabetes in 20 years." Public health experts have probably thought the hardest about how to get people to take the long term into account. There must be something in their playbook that could benefit the anti-surveillance cause.

I would gladly just say "imagination" instead of "mental capacity to imagine", but that word has been ruined by making it sound like something only kids and painters have to exercise. Hard reality: modern world requires imagination to navigate.

For example, most people can imagine living with diabetes, but they have no idea what it would feel like if some entity started using their leaked data against them. It's a much more complex scenario with lots of possible outcomes and variables.

They don’t have the mental capacity? In what sense?

Capacity as relates to e.g. lung capacity - many people can grow their lung capacity and run or bike long distances, but many can't and don't.

So yeah, people can lack mental capacity without being stupid. They are nevertheless extremely uninteresting people who can't fathom, much like cattle, how they are being harvested.

These seem unrelated to me. I should be able to post on social media publicly while still wanting privacy in other aspects of my life. A desire to be seen is not in any way fulfilled by security cameras and tracking cookies.

Dash cam footage! Why has dash-cam footage become a thing on YouTube? Why aren't people demanding that it be shut down?

Even security cameras are now part of performance culture

I like watching dash cam footage.

You're right, but there's a crucial and fundamental difference between surveillance and posting to social media: the second is voluntary. The poster has chosen to share whatever it is. They may not be completely aware of the full range of consequences, but it's still their choice. In some measure, the tech is empowering them to do this thing that they want -- to be noticed.

Surveillance -- including stuff like profiling people by analyzing their voluntary social media posts -- is imposed on a person by someone else. It is taking away the surveilled person's free choice, and its entire purpose is to gain power over them.

There's also absolutely no inherent reason that surveillance -- the deliberate steps of gathering/cataloging/analyzing -- has to come along with people being able to post things in public. That's just a f'd-up practice that our society has adopted.

Personally I don't take pictures of myself and don't have any of the real name or picture based social media sites (Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, Snapchat, etc.) I only use HN, Reddit, and Discord because I enjoy talking about current goings on and ideas with others, and to communicate about shared hobbies or interests.

Do I like to get some Karma on HN/Reddit or reactions on Discord or replies on all 3? Yeah, I do, but not because of some "desire to be noticed" (I think) but because it means someone thinks I have provided some input to a conversation and they want to talk about it at the very least it lets me know I'm not a crazy person talking out of my ass. In fact, I'd prefer that nobody knows my real name or what I look like on all 3 of those sites. I can be a bit more authentic and candid than I'd feel comfortable being otherwise.

> In today's society, the desire to be noticed is easily 50x the level of anxiety about being in a surveillance state.

Well said. Brilliantly well said. Pithy and correct. I will be sharing your words.

Is it really a deep craving, or even a real choice? I am working on an indie game. I really don’t want to play the social media game, I don’t even have Twitter or Facebook. Yet, I’m spending today researching how to make a YouTube channel and how to gain followers. Indie games just almost never sell unless you build an audience before release. Don’t assume everyone does this out of vanity or enjoys the idea of being talked about online

Beware of loudest people in the room bias.

yes, this is like extroverted managers deciding desk layout and locations for their introverted employees without asking.

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