The VT-69 portable data terminal | Hacker News Reader

The VT-69 portable data terminal

violence.works

91 points65656565656573 comments

I like the look of this, and it seems we're seeing more of these type devices. But after looking at their twitter and such, I don't believe this is a real product, no matter how "nice" the VT-69 is.

For real products, there is also the clockworkpi devterm. But the one I'm really interested in is the ready! 100. I think both have been on HN recently. The Ready is really just a case that you can put most any SBC into: from a raspberry pi to an Intel NUC. The screen hooks up via hdmi and the (mechanical) keyboard via usb. I'm planning to put a ryzen board (or maybe a nuc) into mine, along with an SDR. I also do some programming of '80s era commercial radios, which require an RS-232 and software running in DOS (known issues running under dosbox/vm, though freedos is fine). So I'd be making a triple-boot machine. I know one person mentioned planning to put two different SBCs inside the case, a low-power RPi4 and a higher powered ryzen board. Then they can switch between depending on their need.

DISCLAIMER: I am a backer of the ready100 (neo pledge) and I do hope it meets its funding goal. But I have no financial interest. In fact, if it doesn't reach its funding goal, I get my money back.

ready100: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/jlafleur/ready-model-10...

The Ready100 looks enormous, and like it was designed by Mattel during the early 1980's when toy companies were dabbling in computers.

I'm not so sure about this VT-69, either. You could just get a TRS-80 Model 100 off of eBay for $80 and be done with it. The only downside of the 100 is the small screen, but if you're only using it as a dumb terminal anyway, that's not horrible. There's even abandonware to make the TRS-80 display 60 or 70 columns.

I'd agree that if all you want is a portable dumb terminal, then go get a dumb terminal. Nothing more retro than an actual piece of gear from the 80s.

In my case, I'm looking to dual-boot and run programs in the field. Most of those can run in Linux, but some will only work in Windows. This isn't to be like my primary laptop where I'm mostly concerned about battery life and writing code. It's a secondary device, dedicated to specific tasks. I almost purchased the GDP Micro PC for this, and may still depending on the kickstarter. What I liked about the Ready is that I can swap out the motherboard and pretty much every other component over time as needs change. The 3.5" - 4" single board computers keep advancing, getting more power and in some cases, getting cheaper. An Intel NUC with 4-8GB of ram today could be swapped out with a 32GB Ryzen w/GPU board in a few years.

It's a niche inside of a niche, so not everyone will see a need. But a stack of antiquated, mostly dead laptops and tablets motivates me to seek out something like this.

I look at these things and the Model 100 is just about the minimum size I would use.

First, it has to be designed around a real (non-tenkey) keyboard, with a 25- 40- whatever-line screen chosen for size. That is the minimum footprint. Then stuff everything else underneath this top in as thin a manner as possible, of which the CPU and its cooling would probably be the thickest component.

I'm skeptical that anybody needs these tools to fit in pockets.

I admit, In my younger days I fell for the "fits in my pocket" fallacy. No, I don't need that. I almost always need some kind of cable, and a keyboard you can type on is... key.

I do like my laptop to be lightweight, thin, with some semblance of battery life. But for what I'm considering a portable utility computer, I now think in terms of a textbook. Self contained, usable, but also expandable.

> The Ready100 looks enormous, and like it was designed by Mattel during the early 1980's when toy companies were dabbling in computers.

It looks enormous, like it was designed by Commodore in the early 1980's when they made the Commodore 64!

It looks like a C64 with a screen and WiFi! And it's not even much bigger than a C64 for the screen, the C64 already had a hefty "forehead".

I know that noone will believe me, but today as I was on the toilet, trying to wake up -- still groggy --- I just imagined something like this. I thought I wish I had a 19th century typewriter, hook it up to a Raspberry Pi and make a dumb terminal (writing stdout to paper on ink!). Seeing that I probably don't have enough EE skills to do that, I hoped for something like a calculator that can't connect to internet but is programmable and has a keyboard.

Next thing I know, I come to HN and see this post. I guess it's refreshing to know that I'm not the only software engineer who wants to reject modernity. I love programming, I love CS, I love mathematics; but I hate modern computers, internet and software. They're distracting, addictive, bloated, annoying, slow, broken... I just wish I could make a mechanical computer from woods and program that over the weekends.

If you haven't seen it before, you might enjoy this: https://youtu.be/2XLZ4Z8LpEE (Using a 1930 Teletype as a Linux Terminal).

This is like exactly what I imagined... I'll study this and see if this is something I can do in a few weekends (the answer is likely no as I don't have a lot of hands-on engineering experience, just basics of EE and soldering). Is there any consumer product like this (not necessarily typewriter, e-ink or dumb display would also be ok; I just don't want a full-fledged display that can print images).

Computer distraction is killing my life and I'm currently spending Saturdays as no-screen day (no phone/computer use) but I'd be willing to use a calculator-on-steroids like this as a replacement, which I imagine is not as distracting. (Usual TI programmable calculators are what I'm eyeing right now but their keyboard is not good. I want a usual Qwerty keyboard and linux)

I don’t think you can build this in a few weekends, assuming you can even get all the parts in that time.

I would instead get a dumb terminal from eBay from the 70s or 80s (search “terminal” or “televideo” for one of the brand names) and hook it up to a raspberry pi via rs-232. There are several projects on the web showing how to do this (hint: getty on linux)

No graphics and video, but you get a good keyboard and solid ascii output.

I recently picked up a couple deaf tty terminals[0] for free from a local junk shop. They have a bright green vfd display and print to a roll of thermal paper, they feature a big acoustic coupler on the top for a phone handset and have a nice physical keyboard. My plan is to record the tones for each letter, then rig up a pi as a serial-to-audio adapter with a cheap 'retro phone handset to 3.5mm plug' product that can easily be found for ~$10 in the usual places. I can leave the original hardware intact and have a fun terminal. [0] https://teltex.com/ultratec-miniprint-425/

Watching him use ED on the teletype, the lack of ED's interactivity and terseness suddenly makes sense! Though obvious now, it never occurred to me that the tool was designed around physical printing interfaces.

All of UNIX was. Right down to the decision for commands like cp (not copy!) to not print anything unless there's an error. A decade later MS-DOS could be profligate and waste virtual ink printing friendly messages like "2 file(s) copied."

I had a funny day dream too, I was futzing around debugging some damned terminal escape codes which causes tearing when I do backspaces on some systems (specifically when the line needs to wrap..). This might make the parent feel a little ill, but in this era when we rebuild "modern" versions of everything, why has nobody updated terminal escape codes? Specifically, something that looked like a trimmed down HTML and CSS seems like it would have incredible resonance in today's world. Anyone know of a project like that?

Printing console terminals were pretty popular in the mainframe days, our campus computer lab had one on our VAX Cluster. You can still find refurbished units from time to time:

https://www.recycledgoods.com/dec-la120-da-decwriter-iii-dec...

> ... I wish I had a 19th century typewriter, hook it up to a Raspberry Pi and make a dumb terminal ... I just wish I could make a mechanical computer from woods ...

Something like this? "A digital typewriter based on a Raspberry Pi and an E-Ink screen. ... The case has been made from a locally grown cypress. ..."

https://alternativebit.fr/posts/ultimate-writer/

The code/build instructions are available on GitHub.

This is awesome and I wanted to build this but unfortunately links to e-ink display manufacturer are broken/404. I'll see if I can find a replacement but the article claims finding a suitable e-ink display to connect to Raspberry Pi was hard.

I unironically love the shit out of this and all cyberdecks. They tug at my inner 13 year old self's nostalgic heart strings.

> Reject Modernity, Embrace RS232 with a DE-9 Connector. Charge over USB-C.

I'm sold, take my money.

If people are unsure if this is real, various versions have been built and exist already [1].

[1] https://twitter.com/ViolenceWorks/status/1321669741790945281

I've been following this person on Twitter for a while now and actually this was designed a couple of years ago.

I thought they'd decided that the BOM was going to be well over $300 and shelved it because they wouldn't be able to make a successful commercial product. They'd settled on one just for themselves.

I guess that's changed?

Anyway, as much as I'm excited about the possibility of it, I don't think it will see the light of day.

Creator here. Yes, the original idea ended up being a ~$200 BOM or something like that. I dug in and decided to do _everything_ on a $2 microcontroller.

Unfortunately for me, that means spending a lot of time getting the code to work, and getting the code to work fast. And writing a TFT driver from a datasheet that is incomplete. That's why it's been taking so long. That, and quarantine miasma and depression or something like that.

Now the BOM is reasonable, and this is something I can sell for ~$100. With some careful component selection, the major items on the BOM will also be in production for the next decade, so there's time for me to amortize how much time I've spent on this.

Give it a few months. I'm hoping to get some prototype units in the hands of testers by April.

It vaguely reminds me of the Tandy WP-2[0] that's sitting on my workbench. The WP-2 is primarily a word processor, but it does have a serial port with a DB-9 connector so it can act as a rudimentary dumb terminal.

I bet there's enough space inside the case for some variety of Raspberry Pi, battery pack, and the appropriate interface electronics to connect it to the serial port.

[0] http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/2720/Tandy-Portable-W...

I've always wanted something like this. Some kind of nostalgia for the PDAs of the 90s.

I'm keeping an eye on two projects but probably won't actually buy anything (as I've never really used my Gemini PDA)

The Popcorn Pocket PC: https://pocket.popcorncomputer.com/

Pinephone with keyboard: https://www.pine64.org/2021/01/15/january-update-happy-new-g...

I'm patiently waiting for a commercially available cyberdeck (or kit). This website doesn't have pricing or order information, just a neat render. Not sure about the buttons though, they look spongy.

Why wait? Buld your own from old and discarded tech. Get a 2008-era intel atom netbook, discard case, mod it, run OpenBSD. Strap to you wrist, run a powercable up your arm to the car battery or a ducktaped brick of D cells in your bagpack.

Hope it has correct RS232 voltages.

Ah, nice.

I bought an old minitel for 3€ a year ago, still intending to stuff a pi zero inside to achieve mostly that -- but more bulky, owning to the CRT tube.

It would be nice to make it foldable. Maybe consider e-ink as an option for the screen?

I like the fact that this just charges over USB-C, and communicates over a "full-sized" RS-232 connector. How convenient ! But is it a typo and they meant a DB-9 connector instead of "DE"-9? I know no such connector, and it looks like a DB-9 to me, although I see no picture from the back.

http://www.nullmodem.com/DB-9.htm

Excellent, thank you a lot for this, I stand corrected.

> The DE-9 D-sub 9-pin connector is often mistakenly referred to as the "DB-9" connector. The "E" refers to the shell size. A "DB-25" connector has a "B" size shell, but the common nine-pin connector is smaller and has an "E" size shell.

I would have paid serious money for a device like this a few years ago. There are many environments you need to read from an RS-232/DE-9 where bringing a laptop is unacceptable.

Where would a laptop be unacceptable but this work?

I can't answer for the parent comment, but I've configured different appliances over serial cables in datacenters, and in each situation, it would have been more convenient to have had a nice dedicated device like this instead of a big fat "business" laptop.

A USB serial dongle plus any of those netbook-like or smaller form factor laptops should do the trick. I suppose one can get that used for below 100 USD unless one needs a dongle that does proper 12 volts. That alone may cost over 100 USD.

The USB serial dongle with a cheap Chromebook is what I use in the data center if I need to connect to a switch or other device with a serial port. The Chromebook runs all day without charging and it's small and light.

You are 100% right, but I would still buy a VT-69 (if it existed) simply because I'd rather have just a 4-foot RS232 cable instead of a 4-foot RS232 cable plus 3-foot USB adapter. Less extra cable, less potential for tangles / tripping, easier time overall.

The serial-usb adapters that I used at my previous work, including the real one providing the proper 12V, where finger-size dongles with a serial port and a flexible cable of similar length leading to USB-A connector. Essentially one one just attaches it to the serial cable and connect to the laptop as necessary making the dongle very unobtrusive serial cable extension.

Prisons and some industrial facilities would be good examples outside of defense scenarios.

I can think of at least some examples from a long time ago where you couldn’t bring in your gear to a customer datacenter as an escorted visitor. They had a room you could use your stuff in on another floor, and would lend your escort a device if needed. It used to be a real pain for our CEs at the time. They’d have to do things like print log files and fax from a nearby kinkos.

It had more to do with contracts in place with mainframe vendors over “trade secrets”.

> you couldn’t bring in your gear to a customer datacenter as an escorted visitor

Okay, but if they won't let you bring in a computer, they're not going to like this, since per the article -

> it runs a full Linux system with an ARM SOC

It is hard to get a laptop without an integrated radio these days.

I have a GPD Micro PC (https://amzn.com/B07QYZHM8F) which has an RS-232 port but is small enough to fit in a pocket.

I think it's a much more practical form factor than a cyberdeck, tbh.

i use a Pocket C.H.I.P. for this -- it was designed as a handheld hackable games console, but it runs linux and has exposed uart solder points.

Sorry, but however cool this may be, I am unlikely to buy from an orgnization called "Violence Works", even if it's meant as satire, irony, etc.

Hi, creator here. It's not meant as satire or irony.

I love the first-class RS232 support. I recently pre-ordered a ClockworkPi[0], which has more features but lacks USB-C and the dedicated DE-9 port (come to think of it, those two ports are more important than most of the ones on the ClockworkPi...)

[0] https://www.clockworkpi.com/

Cool project. Hard to tell if it actually exists or is just a rendering.

> it runs a full Linux system with an ARM SOC.

So is it a dumb terminal or not?

Dumb terminal has more to do with if the server can inject code on the client than the processing capabilities of the client.

For instance HTML only is a dumb client, HTML + JS is a smart client.

Even back in the day, dumb terminals could have pretty respectable processing power.

Creator here. It's a dumb terminal. Out of the box, it does nothing. It's a keyboard and a screen, and everything you type goes onto the screen and out the serial port.

However, there's an internal 2x20 header that just happens to have the same pin configuration as a popular single board computer. If you plug in that SBC, it becomes a full *nix system. And you'll be able to upgrade when a newer version of that SBC comes out.

Think of it as a VT-180, but instead of a custom Z80 board running CP/M, it uses a Linux board you probably already have sitting in a drawer somewhere.

Keep in mind that originally, Linux was written to be a terminal emulator. So, not a dumb terminal, but a terminal.

What I want is a version that has essentially pikvm built in so that it's a crash cart not just a switch console.

OT but just recently I was reminded that modern x86 CPUs are basically SoC and all they expose are power rails and peripheral buses.

Would it be possible, then, to roll your own motherboard for, say, Core i3-8100 all from public information? How hard could it be?

Not possible with a four layer board accessible for hobbyists. You also need layout tools capable of managing trace impedance and skew.

I do miss keyboards on devices. This is something I'd really buy.

I was about to share this with some folks at work, but mind the screen grab. It's funny, but you might be a bit red-faced if you share it around with your office—culture-depending.

Tell me more.

Yes I agree. I choose to ignore that little Easter Egg.

I normally avoid Twitter et al, but I like their Twitter account.

Forget the screen; the first thing people will see if you post a link is the domain

yeah the domain tells me everything i need to know--not interested in this particular device and hope they fail. someone better should do the same thing.

Hi, creator here, yes I have a long history of advocating violence _in response to violence_.[1]

I'm also the founder of Guillotinery[2], a guillotine startup. I'm looking for some VCs that would like to get in on the ground floor of overthrowing capitalism.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15800415 [2] http://guillotinery.com/

I'm not sure if you've been following the space, but innovation in the digital hamster wheel space has exploded. Might be worth a kickstarter or two.

Its also called fullfrontal.png

Wow, I've not encountered a DB9 connector in like 20 years. Is this relevant for "legacy" equipment? Or are there still DB9 ports on some new equipment?

Yes lots of bits of industrial and electronic equipment still ships with it. For example: https://resources.aimtti.com/datasheets/AIM-1908_multimeter_...

Most of the stuff that runs over USB in that sector is just a serial port as well.

I get the "serial port" part. Just find it curious that the DB9 port is still used in new equipment.

It’s cheap and reliable.

I do encounter a lot of DB9 serial ports, some requiring real RS232 voltages. For me it's mostly old equipment, since factory automation and monitoring equipment can easily last decades there's still a huge installed base.

Not sure what you mean by relevant for legacy equipment? Yes?

Computers for consumers mostly stopped shipping with DB9 ports a decade or more ago (although, fun fact, my 3-year-old Dell Precision has a real RS-232 port via the dock) but RS-232 and its TTL equivalent are still in heavy use in industry, datacenters, and embedded computing.

shut up and take my money

Can we buy this already?

Reminds me of the recent Lisperati1000: https://www.hackster.io/news/the-lisperati1000-is-a-cyberdec...

I think these personal terminals are really cool, and might foster some interesting innovation in the near future.

Do people seriously program Lisp in 2021 or is it just a hobby/retro thing now?

This forum was written in Arc which is a dialect of Scheme.

I'd just use a RS232-to-bluetooth dongle, and my phone. Nostalgia is nice, but no wires and less plastic junk are nicer.

I believe it is just a dream and the product actually doesn't exist.

One of the giveaways is the keyboard layout. Have that product been ever used even in prototype form, this would definitely and immediate come back as a non-starter for CLI usage.

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