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emptyparadise

I don't think I want to use Mac OS, but I'd love to have one of these with Linux.

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Mac OS is like if linux had a trillion dollar company developing it and an actual integrated ecosystem though

You are missing out big time, coming from someone who was staunchly anti-Apple for years

This. When it comes to desktops, macOS is a national railroad, Linux is a model railroad in someone's basement.

>macOS is a national railroad

It's too bad that it's Amtrak and not Japan Railways.

Desktops are not railroads, Internet servers are. Considering that the overwhelming majority of Internet servers are running Linux and practically none of them are running macOS, I find this analogy to be hilariously wrong.

Even among developers, only ~25% of them run a Mac. Linux has that many developers and the rest is Windows.

>> When it comes to desktops... > Considering that the overwhelming majority of Internet servers...

But what about desktops?

I noted that here:

> Even among developers, only ~25% of them run a Mac. Linux has that many developers and the rest is Windows.

It's less than 25% among general users...

Does it still come with a 20 year version of bash by default?

Something like that, but they changed the default shell to zsh, which is newer.

I thank Apple for going to zsh- forcing me to begin learning it and now I have it on all my mzchiesn.

I find your misspelling of "machines" charming.

I am continually boggled by what my iPhone corrects and doesn’t correct.

sudo port install bash && echo /usr/local/bin/bash | sudo tee -a /etc/shells && chsh -s /usr/local/bin/bash

... and then you run a script that depends on `/bin/bash` .. but uses a feature (e.g. coproc, associative arrays) from a version less than a decade old. And then you go and update your PATH and shebang lines to call out `/usr/bin/env bash` and hope things go right.

Starting with macOS Catalina zsh is the default [1] shell.

[1] https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208050

TIL zsh is more than 20 years old

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z_shell

I prefer linux, but it is quite easy to install different shells on macOS.

As someone who is forced by my employer to use MacOS, I cannot agree with this statement.

MacOS for me is a massive pain to use compared to Linux.

Genuinely curious — what are your specific gripes? I switched to Macs (many) years ago after being frustrated with Linux on the desktop. I’ve been quite happy over the years, but I also realize that I tend to spend most of my development time connected to a Linux VM or server.

So, I’m curious as to what your pain points are.

  - I work in multiple OSes simultaneously and MacOS makes this a huge pain as it has substantially different keyboard shortcuts compared to Windows/Linux. You can kinda change this in the System Preferences but it isn't perfect.
  - Depending on your distro, installing and updating software on Linux can be much easier compared to MacOS.
  - MacOS updates tend to break things
  - Automating things on Linux is easy as I have the CLI. Automating things on Windows is kind-of easy as I have AutoHotkey. Automating things on MacOS is hard because there simply isn't a comparable all-in-one tool.
  - Docker on MacOS is pain.
  - Virtual machines on MacOS is pain.
  - Advanced networking on MacOS is pain (when I need complicated VPN setups or just to connect all my VMs together).

I know many of my pain points don't apply to lots of people because my desktop setup is pretty complicated but my main pain point is still keyboard shortcuts. MacOS keyboard shortcuts are just completely different from any other OS and MacOS makes customizing them difficult without 3rd party tools.

I would understand how MacOS may be easier to use if you work with a lot of audio or just use it for web/office stuff though.

> it has substantially different keyboard shortcuts compared to Windows/Linux

Not just different, substantially better, in my opinion. The addition of the command key is a 2x+ increase in modifier-space (2C1 + 2C2 vs. 3C1 + 3C2 + 3C3).

> Automating things on Linux is easy as I have the CLI. Automating things on Windows is kind-of easy as I have AutoHotkey. Automating things on MacOS is hard because there simply isn't a comparable all-in-one tool.

Mac has Keyboard Maestro, AppleScript, and a terminal.

> Not just different, substantially better, in my opinion. The addition of the command key is a 2x+ increase in modifier-space (2C1 + 2C2 vs. 3C1 + 3C2 + 3C3).

Right, but MacOS doesn't live in a vacuum. It's like the whole XKCD about competing standards again: https://xkcd.com/927/. In my eyes it's not worth being different from everyone else simply because you think you are a tiny bit better.

> Mac has Keyboard Maestro, AppleScript, and a terminal.

MacOS does have a terminal but it doesn't feel like integration is as tight with it as on Linux. On Linux I can do crazy things with desktop programs through dbus and systemd is easier to use for me compared to launchd (although this is heavily debated).

Admittingly the automation ecosystem on MacOS may be better than I'm aware as I didn't look very deep into it.

Many of us consider it better, though, and don’t need to deal with other OS’s. Hence why the keys are that way.

Why should macOS curtail to what the rest do?

Yeah, if you move around OSs I'm sure the nonconformity is annoying. I'm in the camp that HCI is better when it's personalized rather than globally standardized, so I heavily rebind and use non-standard keyboards anyways.

It’s not a “tiny” bit better imho. It’s leaps and bounds.

Cutting/pasting into a terminal is effortlessly the same as everything else, instead of some extra modifier to Ctrl-c that I always have to look up in the menu. And find awkward to do as well...

I work pretty much constantly in the terminal on macOS ‘open <file>.pdf’, or .jpg or .png or .(whatever) then I ssh to a Linux box and want to run qtcreator on the .pro file and have to figure out what the damn app was called again...

Etc.

Just like your experience and disappointment with macOS, I expect mine (the opposite of yours) comes down to what I’m most familiar with...

A bit late, but xdg-open might be the command you're looking for on Linux?

Not the GP, but I absolutely cannot live without focus follows mouse and love being able to type and interact with a window without raising it. For example I can overlay a small terminal in front of a web browser and use both at the same time.

Using a floating window manager that doesn't support this is wasting a gross amount of screen real estate.

It's not a perfect replacement for mouse-focus, but most Mac apps can be interacted with without bringing them to the foreground by holding down command before clicking on the inactive window's controls. Also, right-clicking usually won't surface windows. Won't allow you to type but it's good enough for pasting bits in terminal windows, toggling settings, etc without changing which app or window is frontmost.

Seconded. I use both on a regular basis - a Mac laptop for work since I have to interact with the MS Office ecosystem there, and a Linux desktop/workstation for gaming and personal projects.

Between the two, I prefer the Linux machine on pretty much every axis. MacOS feels far too tied to the GUI-oriented way of doing things; it's often difficult or impossible to automate tasks/routines, and troubleshooting when things go wrong is painful.

I haven't found much I couldn't script using built in automation [1] or if it's lower level one of the LUA based scripting tools like hammerspoon [2]. Mac automation is really robust. Even just the default provided tools like Automator or scripting GUI tasks via Javascript/Applescript can accomplish a lot.

Using a tool like Alfred [3] and having "workflows" attached to hotkeys for automated things works wonders. For example I have a "workflow" that lets me hit a hotkey on a playing video and it automatically creates a bookmark at that timestamp which is recorded to a SQLite DB. Any future times I open that video I get a list of bookmarks and the ability to jump to them. This script marks all the currently selected songs in iTunes as loved or the currently playing song as loved. [4]

I have a lot to complain about Mac/MacOS and the direction it's gone down recently, been using Mac since OSX came out, but automation isn't one of them. Out of curiosity what did you try to automate that you couldn't?

[1] https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/La...

[2] http://www.hammerspoon.org

[3] https://www.alfredapp.com

[4] https://gist.github.com/gmanley/750426aa91097aeef3aee5a73a1f...

In addition, there's AppleScript for automating UI apps, which is capable of calling bash scripts. The reverse of bash scripts calling AppleScripts is also possible. It's super powerful.

First off, I hadn't run into Hammerspoon before, so thanks for that - it looks like it might help with some things.

Most things I've tried and failed to do involve silent/background interaction with apps. For example, my company's VPN software doesn't handle sleep well at all, so I wanted to automatically disconnect before sleeping. I couldn't work out how to do it. The Mac Automation stuff (Automator and AppleScript) work if the app supports them, but my experience has been that support isn't necessarily reliable. Electron apps, at least, ignored my attempts last time I tried.

I figured out a way to do things using keyboard/mouse automation, but that fails in any context where I'm either actively doing something or where input isn't being accepted (e.g. when the lid is closed or when I'm actively editing code). On Linux I can at generally resort to Stupid X11 Hackery to make that kind of thing happen, though it sometimes needs WM integration if the app isn't cooperating.

I wanted to use a different ssh-agent on OSx which is a very simple "I want to set a global environment variable." That's literally impossible in OSX. So, I had to open a shell and every app that I wanted to use my ssh-agent had to be launched from that shell.

It's not impossible at all, you can just set it through `launchctl` as shown in this StackOverflow: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/135688/setting-environme...

ah, nice! I haven't tried to figure this out since Yosemite was new and it looks like there's now instructions for how to do it. Thanks for this! If I ever have to go back to OSX, now I know!

Very much in the same boat here. I have an M1 Macbook Pro provided by my employer, and I still find myself reaching for my Thinkpad 9/10 times. I don't think MacOS is bad, but it's not even in the same boat as Linux. Compared to the level of control you have on Linux, MacOS feels like a toy in comparison. A particularly fragile toy at that.

FYI, your comments all show up as "dead" to me. I vouched for this one, but not sure why they're dead.

It's true that some stuff in macOS is tightly integrated, but the fact that homebrew exists and is a must-have kind of demonstrates the opposite.

Also, I've lost count of how many times my 1yo macbook pro crashed, while my crappy Acer laptop with Debian being subjected to the same usage pattern never did.

Horses for courses.

I’ve been staunchly pro Apple since my //e and I’ve recently gotten off of OS X completely. Most of my usage is dependent on developing server/SaaS tooling, and Apple’s dev support is so behind, that it’s made it less hassle to just run Debian on my desk.

I don't know about that. My employer gives out Macbooks to us devs and there's no option but to use OS X. I must say that the OS is as bad as the hardware is good. This is definitely the best laptop hardware I've used, and unfortunately the most unstable, frustrating and bug-ridden OS I've used this side of Windows Vista.

Can you imagine that an OS update disabled the fingerprinter and also broke authenticated settings? And this is a common occurrence apparently.

You are making up terms for macOS. What do you mean by fingerprinter? Do you mean Gatekeeper / codesigning verification for the first time launch of an app?

Presumably the fingerprint reader on the MacBook Pro/Air

> What do you mean by fingerprinter?

There is a button on the top right that doubles as a fingerprint sensor. It stopped working after an OS upgrade.

For an OS that has a trillion dollar company and an actual integrated ecosystem behind it, macOS should offer a much better experience compared to regular desktop Linux though and not just be slightly better in some aspects and slightly worse in many others.

About the only objectively good thing that can be said about Macs running macOS is that the touchpad experience is quite nice ;)

Except for the fact that you don’t actually own your device, Apple does :)

I very much own all of my devices and Apple keeps them updated for 5+ years unlike every other OEM, particularly android OEMs who will barely deliver two major android versions if you are especially lucky.

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