Working Hard With No Regrets | Hacker News Reader

Working Hard With No Regrets

gbayer.com

58 pointsgregbayer21 comments

It all depends on the type of your work.

While I did my PhD I've often worked multiple days without a real sleep in between, because some problems were so interesting to me. At those times I would wake up in the night, think about how I can more effectively implement something, and then spend the remainder of the night hacking on the problem. I didn't even really consider this as work, but more as side-project for which I have infinite time and for which I'm getting paid for.

On the other hand, there are also some dull works you have to do as a research assistant, such as writing project reports, so that the funding agency continues to send you money. When working on those kinds of things it often took less than 8 hours until brain fog set in and forced me to work on more interesting things. If writing those reports would have been a full-time job I'm sure I wouldn't even have handled standard 9-to-5 work without going crazy.

I think this boils to down to definition of working hard. For a lot of my friends, that would mean "working more at the same thing".

I've been in the same situation as described in the OP, but I would call it "working hard at something new". That may entail more work, but man, once you nail it, that's a great feeling. You're not going to get that when you go from 100 support tickets/day to 1000 or even 10,000 - or something similarly routine.

Often, once I actually explain what I was doing during that 120hr week or all-nighter my friends typically respond: "Oh, that's pretty cool. I wish I did stuff like that."

I'm not saying friend and family aren't important, but I think this quote from the OP sums it up:

>However, sometimes I do get caught up in chasing my dreams and forget to make time for friends and family.

I wonder how long you can get away with abusing your health? I wonder how much longer older people would feel young if they hadn't abused their health?

Working hard can be very rewarding. But for the long haul you need balance or you will burn out. Find out what your balance is before you hit the wall.

Please let us end the myth of staying up all night as some noble right of passage, or that if you don't find this enjoyable you're not really a hacker or you don't enjoy your work.

I'm a hacker. I don't enjoy hacking for 18 hours straight because I feel tired and groggy unless I take drugs.

I work better when I'm rested and focused. Everybody does.

Everybody does some of the time, but not everybody does all of the time. I can relate: there is nothing like being tired, going to bed, have a hard/frustrating problem roll around in your head, come up with a solution you were agonizing over, then be wide awake, get up, hit the computer, then crank out code until your body puts you back to sleep.

It's one of the most rewarding (and rare) experiences of a hacker-entrepreneur. Sometimes you don't get this unless you've been head-down, balls-out. When I'm meandering through a problem instead of pouring everything into it, I rarely get these sorts of "eureka" moments.

there is nothing like being tired, going to bed, have a hard/frustrating problem roll around in your head, come up with a solution you were agonizing over, then be wide awake, get up, hit the computer, then crank out code until your body puts you back to sleep.

If you're going to bed, that's not what I'm talking about. The blog post speaks about working on 3 hours of sleep.

Sometimes you don't get this unless you've been head-down, balls-out.

See this is what I'm talking about. This idea that you're not a "real hacker" unless you enjoy staying up all night.

My comment was an aside. I never implied being a real hacker means staying up all night. I don't enjoy it (although I like fighting off the fatigue when I'm really enjoying my work). I was just relating the circumstances that lead up to memorable moments for me.

it's not about working at night, but going balls out from waking to sleep. how long u stay awake doesn't matter, but the passion that engages your every waking moment, and makes you want to stay awake longer, so great is your desire to hack.

Perhaps, but some realize that the mind can control the body in unhelpful ways. For me, my mind races at night. Sometimes I indulge, but I always feel like complete shit the next day.

I've learned my mind doesn't actually want to stay up all night. I had to optimize my own process.

i said: "it's not about working at night, but going balls out from waking to sleep."

if you sleep early, ok. but when you're awake, do you want to spend all your time hacking? then you have the passion. if not, then not. that's my point: it's what you want to do with your waking hours, not which hours your prefer to sleep.

I wasn't arguing with you. My point is that even if I have the passion, the passion might not optimize for productivity. A super late night might ruin the next day, for example. I have to harness the passion to make it more productive.

Sometimes you don't get this unless you've been head-down, balls-out.

or ovaries-out, i suppose?

There are roughly two kinds of people based on their working habits.

One kind is the steady craftsman kind who gets up at 6, works three hours, takes a coffee break, works more, and continues in this fashion until he has reached his limit for one day. The other one is the crazy artist kind who mulls over a task for days until he suddenly gets inspired and taps right into the zone and works for hours or days nonstop and gets amazing things done.

Both kinds generally get the same amount of work done on the final page, they just divide the effort differently.

I've always observed that hacking, for me, is just like that artist's work: I gotta do my work when I'm in the flow. All I can do is give myself enough rest afterwards when it's over.

I've observed that when I'm rested and theoretically focused I might not get nothing done. I can pretend to be working but I just don't get it, get anything, or get anything done. I might consider myself a lazy ass of a procrastinator but luckily I know that is only one half of the truth. Sometimes it happens that I just code for 12 hours or 24 hours straight while hunger and consciousness of time gradually slip away, and that means I get lots, lots, and lots done—even when I'm technically tired as a sloth but still in the zone.

A day-to-day work of a programmer is, thus, to work out a routine that splits your work in two halves. The boring tasks that require not much creativity are best done while not in the zone (and still you'll waste hours and hours and hours on nothing). The creative process of making is best reserved for when you've got the flow and then it means business, baby, and working like hell as long as it lasts.

Phew!

I think you're creating a false dichotomy. I used to believe that I was the "artist" type, but I was mainly just a procrastinator who didn't have good work habits. I became the "steady progress" type as I took on bigger, harder projects. And honestly, passion is a lot harder to come by when you're working on an intractable bug six years into a long-term project. If you rely on the muses to guide you, you rarely get things done, because that last 1% is rarely ever fun.

Also, you might be surprised by how many artists have a strict routine, and dedicate themselves to a regular pattern of practice. Twyla Tharp wrote an entire book on the subject:

http://www.amazon.com/Creative-Habit-Learn-Use-Life/dp/07432...

Some people don't understand how much hacking is fun for some of us; money, fame, fortune, the monthly check from a shady employer - they are are just useful side-effects.

Ha, way to self-post, greg ;) but it seems like people are feelin' your article, so keep up the good work.

My oversimplified view of the world is that there's a 2x2 matrix: {need to work hard, don't need to work hard} x {doing what you love, doing what you don't love}. you're obviously in (1,1). i think the goal is to avoid (1,2) at all costs. i imagine that most people's jobs are in (2,2), which is fine and better than (1,2).

There's nothing wrong with self-posting on HN.

Work hard, just don't push yourself harder than you find enjoyable. For a lot of us that threshold is extremely high for hacking. This has always been my philosophy and it work really well for a long time. I broke it recently and paid the price.

Is it truly work if you are enjoying what you are doing? One of the keys to avoiding regret is to figure out how the things you need to do and the things you love to do can be one and the same.

However, sometimes I do get caught up in chasing my dreams and forget to make time for friends and family. Just like realizing dreams, successful relationships are built on quality time spent together. I always appreciate being reminded to dedicate more time to this essential part of life, as I was today. I’d love to hear your thoughts or personal experiences on achieving the right balance.

Work and family/friends are big priorities in my life. I don't see what the issue is. I think most folks piss too much time away on hobbies, seeing the latest movie, filling their lives with material crapola, unnecessarily long commutes and other pointless "filler". If you keep those things under control, I think there is time for both work and "love"/relationships.

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