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Comment by PragmaticPulp | Hacker News Reader

There aren't actually 600+ reports in here, as the headline (currently) suggests. It appears over 600 people have pressed the "I have this question, too" button, but the number of people posting reports is much smaller.

Keep in mind that Apple sells a massive number of AirPods. On the order of 100,000,000 units per year. The prevalence of tinnitus is estimated to be in the range of 10% of the population.

It's also possible to impact earwax against the eardrum when inserting anything into your ear, Airpods or otherwise. Earwax compacted against the ear can worsen or modulate tinnitus. That would be my most likely explanation for any sudden-onset tinnitus following earbud use.

Source: https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/tinnitus/symp....

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Nope. This is a real problem. I own the AirPods Pro, older version and the newer Max. Immediate onset of tinnitus when using pro. Went away after I stopped. Extensive use of the Max and regular AirPods don’t produce the same. Never had tinnitus. I also use AKG studio headphones, and I’ve had ultimate ears custom moulded for me by an audiologist for on stage use. I’ve also used a hell of a lot of other audio gear for on stage performance, production, phone calls and casual listening with no tinnitus or other effects.

Trust me when I tell you that this is the tip of the iceberg and may result in a massive lawsuit over permanent hearing damage. I avoid AirPods Pro like the plague now.

I posted this 3 months ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24805366

Well, half of the reports in the forum thread are for other models, not only the AirPods Pro, including the original AirPods causing tinnitus..

Correct me if im wrong. But tinnitus doesnt come and go. Its something you have or you dont, and once you have it, its there and will only get worse as more damage accumulates.

https://www.nidcd.nih.gov/health/tinnitus

I have it, mostly from hunting without ear pro. I dont always notice it, but its always there. Its usually mostly noticeable when im going to bed at night,when scuba diving, or when on a plane and I havent cleared by ears.

OR if/when i have headphones that create a seal in my ear, like the silicon earbuds that create, which is why you can hear yourself chewing/swallowing. Its a main reason i don't wear those types of earphones.

Tinnitus is always there, its permanent. But it just may be noticeable under certain conditions or circumstances.

This. Temporary ringing in the ears is not tinnitus.

I think people without tinnitus are having the normal symptoms associated with use of noise cancelling headphones. Those symptoms admittedly can be pretty nasty including sinus headaches and ringing in the ears.

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/tinnitus/

> You may hear these sounds in 1 or both ears, or in your head. They may come and go, or you might hear them all the time.

> Tinnitus is always there, its permanent. But it just may be noticeable under certain conditions or circumstances.

I don't get this. Tinnitus is a ringing in my ears. When I don't notice it, it's not there.

Maybe you're saying that if it's being caused by some physical damage in the ear then that damage is still there. Sure, but it doesn't seem like that's always a component. From your link:

> Although we hear tinnitus in our ears, its source is really in the networks of brain cells (what scientists call neural circuits) that make sense of the sounds our ears hear. A way to think about tinnitus is that it often begins in the ear, but it continues in the brain.

Personally, I develop tinnitus any time I take a vacation, or if I'm consistent with meditation practice. But when my brain is instead constantly active, it's totally absent.

You are describing scenarios where it’s noticeable. It’s like saying if a tree falls in the woods and no one is there.

However my point is, just because some may become aware of their tinnitus when wearing say...AirPods Pro, that doesn’t mean they are the cause. I would notice it with those just as I would with the silicon earbuds that come with Roku remotes. But don’t notice it with my regular AirPods.

There are times it’s worse for me. Like when I’m stressed and times it’s suppressed, like when my adrenaline is pumping. And there are times when it’s more noticeable, like when it’s dark and quiet and my primary senses are dampened.

But regardless I would be part of that % of the population that has tinnitus.

And just because it’s noticeable with x device doesn’t mean that’s the cause.

> You are describing scenarios where it’s noticeable. It’s like saying if a tree falls in the woods and no one is there.

OK, but I believe in this situation, there is no physical sound, unlike if a tree falls in the woods. It's an auditory hallucination. A visual hallucination isn't there if I don't see it, and neither is an auditory hallucination.

FWIW I think we're largely in agreement. I described that I can gain tinnitus at-will by meditating, but I wouldn't say meditation causes tinnitus. And I can certainly see the AirPod/tinnitus connection being of the same nature - nothing with the physical hearing systems at all and instead a consequence of a change in the mind - even though I wouldn't say tinnitus is "always there".

> When I don't notice it, it's not there.

It's there, you're just not noticing it. It may be more correct to say "When I don't notice it, it's not a problem". A bad analogy might be the noise of cars at night if you live in a city. Eventually, you get to the point where you don't notice it most of the time; it's not a problem. That doesn't mean the noise isn't there, just that it's not a problem for you.

Tinnitus is the damage and noise it causes. This can be annoying, but the fact that it's not annoying sometimes doesn't mean it's not there; you're just ignoring it.

Caveat: It is possible to damped/stop the noise caused by tinnitus for periods of time. Generally, this is done by "distracting" your brain in some way.

> It's there, you're just not noticing it. It may be more correct to say "When I don't notice it, it's not a problem"

For those of us that have it (mine is chronic), there is no difference between "I don't notice it" and "it's not there". We can debate semantics, but when I say "it", referring to tinnitus, I mean "it" to be "me noticing the noise". The noise IS "IT". If I don't notice it, it isn't there. It's not like /I/ don't notice it but someone else can, proving its existence.

I’ve had tinnitus for 25 years, and normally I also don’t hear anything (any more). Here’s the trick though: it’s my brain filtering out the frequencies of the ‘tone’.

Tinnitus is simply the perception of sound when no actual sound is present.

There are many different sub-categories of tinnitus, including the type you describe that results from permanent hearing damage.

However, there are other causes of tinnitus that can come and go, or be worsened by different conditions. Some people have tinnitus that changes volume by clenching their jaw, for example.

Classic subjective tinnitus is thought to be similar to phantom limb syndrome, where the patient experiences sensory inputs that are not actually present.

There is even a category called Objective Tinnitus, which is tinnitus that an external observer can hear (with the right tools). This is usually caused by strange blood flow patterns or muscle spasms.

Wow I have chronic tinnitus and just clenched my jaw a few times. The pitch just got higher. Never noticed that before.

Me either. I know my normal hz but now I want to go figure out the clenched jaw one.

I used to get the same. I was able to help it by getting in the habit of stretching my jaw often, and shifting my neutral jaw "posture". The neutral state used to be me keeping my jaw closed, meaning bringing my teeth together (not tight enough to clench, but just enough for contact), but I retrained myself to let my jaw "hang" when in a neutral state. It's helped a lot with tinnitus, ear pressure, jaw pain, etc.

May I ask how you managed to retrain yourself? I have tinnitus for a year now, plus issues with clenching my jaw, but I have yet to find a good way to stop doing it.

Self-awareness mostly. No tricks, just paying attention to what I'm doing and making a conscious effort to change the subconscious behaviors.

Have you run across orthotropics? If so, what are your thoughts when comparing it to your direct experience?

I kinda have a friendly relationship with my tinnitus. If I move my jaw in circles, the noise frequency follows the movements. I find it kinda funny. For example, right now I don't hear it (only if I really focus on it), but if I move my jaw, I immediately can hear it.

Interesting for some people as well: firmly press your palm to your forehead

Maybe HN can tell me if this is normal (following the "changes volume by clenching their jaw" part) : If I clench my jaw I can hear ringing.

Normally I don't hear anything, but that could be because it's below the threshold that I'd notice it at.

Anyways: people with definitely good hearing, do you hear ringing when you clench your jaw?

No ringing, but with earplugs (the hearing protection kind) or airpods or anything else in my ears that seals tightly, in a quite environment I can hear a sort of rumble from clenched jaws if I listen very carefully. Probably the muscles vibrating a little or the bloodflow or something.

I’ve had tinnitus for 25 years, and normally I also don’t hear anything. Here’s the trick though: it’s my brain filtering out the frequencies of the ‘tone’.

Only mentioning to say check that too if you’re checking for jaw-clench ringing

Tinnitus is a symptom whose cause may or may not be permanent. It comes and goes for me.

Mine comes and goes. I find that if I drink from a water bottle with a straw, I’ll get it periodically for about 24 hours after.

This seems odd to me. I guess tinnitus symptoms can be intermittent, but it isn't tinnitus unless it is constant? What label is appropriate for someone like me with intermittent symptoms?

Edit: sorry, I see about a million people are saying similar thing and have a lot of discussion under them.

Tinnitus can be persistent, intermittent, or change sounds, tone or pitch. It is all in the same category.

As someone with tinnitus and just got Airpods Pro two days ago this news disturbs me. I don't want it to get worse.

I'm wondering if this is caused by ultrasonics? Someone must have measured these somewhere...

The original thread is about AirPods (non-Pro). There was a conspiracy theory (that's the best word I can think of but may not be the correct one) a year or two ago because a bunch of updates to Bose, Apple, and other noise canceling headphones seemed to make the noise canceling worse and the rumored reason was they internally might have found hearing damage. AFAIK there's no direct or scientifically vetted information that this was the reason for the change.

Headphones and earbuds can cause hearing problems for quite a few unrelated reasons. People tend to increase the volume with headphones (I check the average audio level in Apple Health. I keep the volume quite a bit lower when using the Pro vs the original). Earbuds can compact earwax inside the ear causing pain, tinnitus, or hearing problems for some people.

This is not necessarily evidence.

Your tinnitus might have just become noticeable with the Airpods or perhaps something completely unrelated impacted it.

I had tinnitus flare ups during lockdown so went to both an audiologist and an ent specialist (had a mri too). I'm a heavy user of ANC devices as a means to relax/cope with my environment so I suspected the devices.

Professionals told me that there was no hearing damage and that my flare ups were likely connected to clenching my jaw and stress. I mentioned my devices/usage to my health professionals and they said there is no reason for concern.

After some physio I'm much better off.

If people are working from home in quieter environments where they're not exercising while using ear pieces / headphones more often, it shouldn't be surprising that tinnitus is becoming more noticeable. This is also during a pretty stressful time too, which doesn't help with tinnitus.

Greetings from another heavy user of ANC for the purpose of coping with a noisy environment.

That's a whole lotta new pricing strategy from Apple to push you into buying the premium item: the middle one now makes you sick.

I just had my ears cleaned and had a clump of ear wax around the size of a kidney bean come out. Quite frankly I was horrified but had had suspicions about hearing issues in the prior weeks.

The nurse essentially has an angled syringe that they use to repeatedly spray warm water at the wax until it’s dislodged. It’s not a nice sensation but tolerable.

After the procedure was done, the nurse had asked if I regularly had in ear headphones or earplugs - which was the case. So be aware of this issue.

To make matters more complicated, there are reports of chronic tinnitus being reported after earwax (aka cerumen) removal: https://www.tinnitusjournal.com/articles/chronic-tinnitus-re...

It's a complicated topic, though, because many people first notice their tinnitus because they start paying attention to their ears for some reason, such as an earwax removal procedure, or using noise-cancelling headphones which lower the noise floor so much as to make tinnitus obvious over the reduced noise floor.

No joke, I read this comment and realised my ears are ringing.

It's a very real phenomenon.

Now imagine if you had inserted air-cancelling earbuds that reduced background noise to levels well below ambient. The ringing would feel even louder.

Tinnitus sufferers hate isolation tanks for this reason. Background noise masks tinnitus quite well, so eliminating it makes tinnitus subjectively worse.

And then go into one of those noise cancelling rooms, and the only sounds you can hear are your blood pumping through your body and the tinnitus ringing.

The first time this happened to me it was so profound it made me question the nature of my reality. I left the doctors office slightly nauseous and with bionic super-hearing.

This happened to me once as a kid; it was surreal.

Now, I have tinnitus 24/7. (Which is completely unrelated.)

You can do this at home with very warm water and a soft bulb, squeezing it as hard as you can, and it is terrifying. It feels uncomfortable and sounds very loud. Do it for as long as you can stand, and then do it more. Do it for so long that you feel like an idiot and get dizzy.

About 10-15 squirts past the moment when you think there can't possibly be any point to what you're doing, an eldritch horror will come out of your ear into the sink, and you'll hear sounds you haven't heard in years.

Then do the other ear.

Yep. They sell a product here called Remo-wax where you place drops in the ear for about an hour and then you spray the ear with a rubber ball/syringe type thing. I had no results with this however. The “ball” was so big i think it needed someone to target the blockage directly. Your mileage may vary.

I tried a lot of the products that involve putting drops in your ear, and maybe they work for delicate dainty people. The only thing that works for me is dozens of painful, loud blasts of hot water from a bulb until the abomination lurking inside has had enough and comes out.

In general, wouldn't listening to any headphone/earphone at a very high volume (which happens very often when you're listening in a loud environment like in the subway) eventually cause tinnitus? I know on android there's actually a specific warning about this if you go above a certain volume. What specifically about AirPods would cause this that other earbuds wouldn't?

And to flip that again, wouldn't having anything in ear ear dampen the noise of trains and such to actually help your ears?

I rode a diesel electric locomotive commuting daily for about 8 years. These machines are very, very loud.

Only if it creates a seal.

The lack of any real seal/isolation with the hard plastic of the non-Pro AirPods may lead to people turning the volume up even further.

I’ve certainly found myself turning mine up quite high when listening to audiobooks while walking (with background traffic noise)

It takes a lot more than just that to really isolate. I use Remote Audio HN-7506: physical mass plays a part. Those are heavy, have gel earcups that are physically solid and bulky, and clamp really hard on your head. Earbuds aren't physically big enough and can't produce a rigid enough seal to compare… at least not AirPod style ones.

I've not worked with rigid, custom-molded in-ears. Something like that might be enough of a barrier, but remember if sound waves can physically move the earphone against the seal, that's going to be sound leakage. The Remote Audio cans aren't designed for comfort, they're designed to control sound pressures that'd instantly wreck your eardrums, like high-caliber nearby gunfire for extended periods. The headphone drivers are literally an afterthought, added by a separate company if I remember correctly.

It dampens the sound of the train, but people generally end up boosting the volume of the music to the highest level it goes on the phone, and that can cause issues long term. Blocking one sound doesn't help anything if you're replacing it with an equally (if not more) loud sound.

How do people stand listening to music on the highest volume settings? I'm in the lower third for music and lower half for youtube max.

Maybe, if the noise from outside the earbuds is loud enough, and the earbuds are blocking at least some of that. But even if the earbuds block some of the outside noise, some of it is still going to get through, and that makes hearing the music harder and makes people want to crank up the music volume.

Absolutely. Pete Townshend's deaf in one ear and has severe tinnitus, and he doesn't blame Marshall stacks (or even the still louder Hiwatt amps he actually used), he blames headphones in the studio.

It's a very serious thing and it's dead simple to produce dangerous loudnesses, that close to the eardrum. What I ended up doing for tracking drums and loud things, is investing in some heavy isolation headphones, Sony drivers in the same kind of heavy tight enclosures used for ear protection at gun ranges. They're pricey, but they work.

Otherwise, you're still getting close to the sound pressure levels of whatever drums or amps you're playing, and then you're trying to turn up the backing tracks in your headphones to be enough louder than that, so you can hear what you're working on. And that's super dangerous.

Same thing with music to drown out noisy subway rides or what have you. You'll go deaf. Extra fast.

> Absolutely. Pete Townshend's deaf in one ear and has severe tinnitus, and he doesn't blame Marshall stacks (or even the still louder Hiwatt amps he actually used), he blames headphones in the studio.

Eddie Van Halen attributed his cancer to biting on metal guitar picks, and not his legendarily heavy smoking habit. Not sure we can put much stock in either.

Keep in mind 600 is a high number, the barrier to discovery, association, research, reporting is pretty high.

The massive volume of Airpods sold multiplied by the high number of hours used by each customer should surface these issues quickly due to scale alone.

600 out of 200,000,000-300,000,000 units sold is a reported incidence of around 0.0002%.

It's possible that earbud usage has some negative effects in certain people due to earwax impaction or changing pressure in the inner ear, but Apple may be getting the blame because they're the only vendor operating with such large market share.

Tho, you don't compare it to the absolute number of units sold, but to the typical engagement in the support forum. How many people would even make the connection between Airpods and tinnitus? Same with the dead M1 macbooks and USB-C hubs. I agree the "600" isn't exactly science, but your argument isn't either.

Even so, I find it hard to outright dismiss claims of earbuds causing damage.

Tinnitus can be a lifelong condition and deserves investigation.

It already seems like a platitude to tell folks not to listen at peak volume for extended periods of time. It'd be interesting to see if there are common behaviors, such as use at max volume, reported amongst those affected.

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