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Comment by tomxor | Hacker News Reader

I am paid to solve problems, programming is one part of that, thinking about the problem and the code is a prerequisite to programming. Sometimes one needs to step back and let things sink in rather than continuous action (programming)... while doing that you can even play games, I'll admit some activities are better than others for the purpose of de-focusing your subconscious - but sometimes you also just need a short mental break, that's often when I go to HN.

For the same reason our job's don't stop when we go home (or turn off slack) either, we are essentially paid to think and our brains do not care about the arbitrary thresholds set by 9-5. I fully realise how much someone is actually able to practice this has more to do with the organisation they work for appreciating the difference between cognitive and manual work.

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> For the same reason our job's don't stop when we go home (or turn off slack) either, we are essentially paid to think and our brains do not care about the arbitrary thresholds set by 9-5.

Speak for yourself. Some of us have been there, burnt out and had to rebuild our relationship with work in a healthy manner. I think no matter what you do, if it is thought work and you don't find a wat to turn it off, you are doing yourself a diservice.

I loved what I did for 10 years, then all of a sudden I didn't. It was like my brain had cottoned on to the fact that software was where all my stress came from and I felt ill even thinking about sitting at a computer. I have rebuilt my relationship with software into a more healthy one since then, but it bares mentioning time again. The software industry will burn your wick at both ends and then toss you asside when you're no longer young and stupid enough to work more than a normal work week.

Sorry to be so cynical, just be careful is all.

"The software industry will burn your wick at both ends and then toss you asside when you're no longer young and stupid enough to work more than a normal work week."

THIS.

One way to not care about the arbitrary thresholds set by 9-5 is to happily not think about work during those hours, just as much as you may think of it while falling asleep.

It's a good point, but, to be fair to parent commenter, they may have meant something different.

I think they may be referring to the phenomenon of walking away and having the solution "come to you" while doing something else. It took me a while to appreciate this, but simply walking away is often the fastest way for me to solve a hard problem. There I am, lying in bed, or cooking, or whatever, and BOOM the solution is presented to me - just like the divine inspiration described by so many. Of course, now we (hopefully) know that it's probably less a matter of intervention and more a matter of brain chemistry, but true regardless.

Yes I hope my tone was fair, I didn't want to be too cynical. There is definitely a spectrum between "overworked, burning out" and "love my job and sometimes I think about it at home too".

How do you not think about work outside of work though? My current job is a shitshow, and I would like my thought towards it to only happen 9–5 while I get paid, but my brain is always thinking about whatever I’m stuck writing code about even during my weekend or outside work hours. I don’t work outside work hours but I can’t stop the thinking either. You make it sound like there is an on off switch, but I don’t seem to find mine. Do you have any tips?

Definitely not an on off switch, it took me ages to get better at turning work off. I think the only advice I can give is to make sure you have non-computer/software hobbies, and practice being more mindful in general. Being mindful lets you get better at noticing when you've got yourself in a work/stress hole again. Thinking about work is involuntary most of the time, you just end up there, but if you can train yourself to notice it you can hopefully get better at stopping it.

This technique helps me break a thought pattern. I ask myself (regarding my situation where I physically am right now and then expanding outwards to my life)

“Is this pleasant?” “Is this unpleasant?” “Is this neutral”

For example, I walk into a room thinking about work, sit down still thinking about work, and finally notice I’m thinking about work, so I ask myself the questions. Is the chair alright? How do I feel? Hungry? Cold or tired? No, this chair and room are comfortable. I’m safe, my family are nearby, I just ate a nice sandwich etc... that’s pretty good.

It forces me back into the present. Added bonus, the moment you label anything as neutral it transforms into pleasant, because anything not unpleasant is pleasant!

You could try it continuously or set alarms or just ask yourself often. Whatever suits you.

Came here to say this. Coding is one part of the job but mostly what I get paid to do is solve problems. I've worked on projects that were more process oriented and produced zero code whatsoever and still had the sort of outcomes good software does.

The vast majority of my job, outside of writing efficient and secure code, is learning about other systems and domains. Software Engineers can be employed in anything from financial technology to healthcare to kids toys. You're going to have to step outside of your depth a lot and at least having some shallow platform to stand on is imperative.

I’d love to hear about a project that produced zero code. I can’t even imagine it outside of compliance or regulation maybe.

I think 1/3rd of the problems I solve involve no code changes?

Often it's showing people another way to use an existing feature

Security, integration, exploring a new feature or design that didn't work out, removing old a/b code for completed experiments....

The last one was basically a governance project where we redesigned the processes around enterprise decision making.

> our job's don't stop when we go home (or turn off slack) either, we are essentially paid to think and our brains do not care about the arbitrary thresholds set by 9-5

I used to believe and practice that, but that's what led to a lot of life dissatisfaction and burnout and near-burnout.

Sure, not saying I never think about my work outside work hours, but these days I start work in the morning, stop in the evening, and in general don't worry about it until the next morning. That tends to make the hours I am working much more productive, and avoids huge variance in productivity as I swing toward and away from burnout periodically.

And I say this as someone who loves programming, and did it as a hobby before I did it professionally. For a good 8 years I didn't want to touch a code editor outside of my job; I just had no creativity and desire left for my own projects after being always-on work-wise for so long. Now that I've enforced more separation between my professional and personal lives, I'm able to do it as a hobby again sometimes without being burned out on it after work is done.

That period of time between 5 and 9 the next morning is actually there for the mental break you mentioned before. I'm not advocating a very strict separation between work and free time, but if the line between the two blurs too much (made easier by home office), your work might completely invade your free time, which isn't good either...

> work might completely invade your free time

Yes, I agree but also feel it's a natural risk for any cognitive work. But not every day feels very effective forcing work hours for me, it's a hard balance, one I usually ensure stays in check with some outdoor activities that are currently not allowed :/

While off topic I’d echo this for managing coders as well.

A lot of the problem set is debugging people and teams. For example “why is x person performing differently” and the debugger are time boxed to 1:1s, sprint cadence meetings, and looking at output, so the thinking between those debugging events is increased because you can’t just brute force it like a sticky code problem.

I think the pandemic has worsened this. Pre-pandemic I had a 40 min walk buffer to and from work where I’d naturally start thinking about my own life. Others had dedicated offices at home and other social interactions, or a coworking space.

Now most social interactions and validation for many come from work slack or zoom, no commute for everyone, and for those in smaller spaces their living room or kitchen or bedroom is their office so work is always within reach and their is no buffer. There’s also not much else to do.

So even if you can pull yourself away from your laptop your thoughts are more often than not focused on solving these kinds of work problems.

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