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Comment by marc_io | Hacker News Reader

I find it a little problematic when these ancient practices are separated from their broader context. There are further, unknown implications by doing so. It is similar to what was done with what we call "Yoga" here in the west. I am not saying that these practices cannot evolve, they must. But they are certainly part of a tradition that has been coherently applied and studied for centuries.

In my opinion the result of this type of approach is a diluted, incomplete practice, focused mainly on symptom relief, which tends to forget the heart of the matter.

There is nothing wrong with taking these practices as inspiration to help people, and I think your approach is a good way to bring them to know more about these practices.

But perhaps you should bring a little more of the philosophical/theological side to this modern take on meditation, something like what Stephen Batchelor is doing with his Secular Buddhism.

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What we call Yoga in the west is mostly appropriation. The rest is misunderstanding because the concept does not fit in thinking western minds.

The best we get is what tae bo is to professional boxing.

Source: conversations and experiences with someone who had the fortune to study both in New Delhi yoga university and with a Yoga lineage in the Himalayas.

The official university still didn’t touch, or know, of essential elements of the practices. Whether intentionally hidden or forgotten, they are completely unheard of in the West.

In the west we have Yoga laptops for heavens sake.

Thank you for your input! Our feeling is that we give deep reverence to the traditional practices and the thousands of years of wisdom with which they come, and we are attempting to help other people who haven't connected with those forms develop a mindfulness practice that does connect for them. We believe if more people in the world are practicing mindfulness the world will be a kinder, more compassionate place.

Yoga laptops are actually made by a Chinese company, which most people consider to be in the ‘east’. How does that fit into your idea of western appropriation?

Quite beautifully actually. I’m going to use this laptop on some Swedish furniture, wearing my indigenous moccasins, while watching a western anime, eating California roll sushi and drinking an americano from a Starbucks.

What practices specifically in yoga do you speak of? I honestly appreciate that people in the west have secularized both yoga and meditation, as I personally find no value in the spiritual aspects and only find value in the exercise in the case of yoga and helping psychologically in the case of meditation. I'm curious to hear your perspective though, it seems to be different from mine.

Yoga in the west is an effective stretching technique, with inspiring names and imaginary. So, very good indeed, but nothing to do with the source.

It’s awful for stretching, it doesn’t isolate muscles very well and strains joints. If it was good for stretching, you’d see NFL and MLB players doing it on the field before their games. It’s a ridiculous, roundabout way to do something that science has figured out can be done much quicker and easier, with less risk to the body.

It’s just a vain feel good activity. Yoga practitioners talk all about their “practice” and improving themselves through their “practice”. You’ll hear yoga studios say stuff like “don’t go to church, just do yoga!”. There’s a bunch of pride wrapped up in getting the poses right, but this doesn’t benefit your body, it just lets you one-up on other people because your pose is “more correct”.

There’s not strong evidence-based support for stretching.

NFL and MLB players do tons of stuff like cupping or wearing magnets that are questionable. Doing yoga because it makes you feel accomplished seems about as harmless as channeling your ego into any sport or physical pursuit.

Sukshma

Yoga is a spiritual practice, the fundamental goal is realizing your true (non-physical) self.

The physical exercises started out as conditioning to be able to sit longer in meditation, which is how you get there.

What if the “physical” exercises included aspects that qualitatively changed the state of one’s mind in ways that cannot be contained by thinking and thus cannot be expressed by language?

Sure, and that goes for all internal experiences.

In the ashram where I stayed we weren't even allowed to talk about the practice.

The word Yoga comes from the root "yog" in Sanskrit. It literally means "sum", "union". Yoga is to be in union with nature. It happens when one is living harmoniously.

Agree. There’s a sort of woo popularity thing with a large tranche of mindfulness which is a bit too goal oriented and westernised for my tastes. I mean, each to their own but for me it’s a bit like abridged classic novels or pseudo classical renderings of Beethoven: it may have the essence of the real thing but in simplifying and “making easy”, it’s also loses much of the depth and richness. Proust and Beethoven aren’t meant into be “easy” or “accessible”, but if you make the effort, your life is richer because of that. Feels the same to me with meditative practice. I’m all for more people doing it but it all too easily feels transient, a passing fad, something that will only be popular with people while it’s fashionable. I’ve found the deeper parts of my practice by persevering through the hard times, by beginning to understand how grasping the human (particularly western) mind is, and by just sitting.

Thank you so much for your feedback! We like to stay away from those aspects as it can be off putting for people who don't subscribe to a certain philosophy or theology. We, instead try to make more approachable for everyone where you don't need to believe in anything other than spreading kindness to yourself and others. We certainly pay homage to where the traditions come from when we talk about the practice, for example at the start of class, or in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUJhfjxvNDE&feature=youtu.be or in this blog post https://chorusmeditation.com/blog/founder-friday-mk-on-our-p...

In doing this you are completely divorcing a people's fundamental belief system and heritage from them so that "people who don't subscribe to" the existence of that people's heritage, culture and belief system don't feel offended.

This is complete cultural appropriation and you should stop perpetuating it while making money off of it.

I appreciate that it's been secularized, we shouldn't stop people from practicing yoga or meditation just because they don't want to subscribe to a religious ideology. Sure it did come from religions but there's no need to keep it tied to that religion if it can help more people outside of that, in a scientific sense (ie increased flexibility, breathing etc).

If we as a species didn't "culturally appropriate", the world would be hundreds of years behind in terms of progress. Invention itself is built on the idea of taking pre-existing concepts, combining and adapting them in new contexts. The idea that you can't borrow some existing body of knowledge because it's inherently sacrosanct and cannot be divided is just patently absurd.

Cultural appropriation refers to the use of objects or elements of a non-dominant culture in a way that doesn't respect their original meaning, give credit to their source, or reinforces stereotypes or contributes to oppression. - Google

The problem here is not invention. The problem here is that aliabramovitz and company "like to stay away from those [theological] aspects as it can be off putting for people who don't subscribe to a certain philosophy or theology", in a subject matter where the original theology is a core part of it, and that too a theology that is not aliabramovitz's own theology in order to cater to people who dislike the theology of the original owners of the practice.

So no, white people stealing other peoples practices and bastardizing them !== Invention necessary for the world to progress.

It is simply stealing and removing the original in order to cater to Abrahamics and to make money.

> The problem here is not invention. The problem here is that aliabramovitz and company "like to stay away from those [theological] aspects as it can be off putting for people who don't subscribe to a certain philosophy or theology", in a subject matter where the original theology is a core part of it, and that too a theology that is not aliabramovitz's own theology in order to cater to people who dislike the theology of the original owners of the practice.

And as an Indian who used to practice Yoga as a child (too boring for me now) I'd say that this is completely fine. If the theological aspect was indeed crucial for deriving value from the whole experience, people would eventually lose interest because they wouldn't be gaining anything from the aliabramovitz's venture right?

Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?[1]

[1] Quote by Douglas Adams

And as a Hindu (the aforementioned theology in this discussion) I will point out that yoga is not a stand alone exercise or something that needs to entertain you in order for you to continue to practice it, but rather part of a whole discipline of preparing your body in order to sit down and meditate for long periods of time.

And this is the exact reason that these practices should not be divorced from their theological fundamentals in the way that White Abrahamics practice it.

And this is also why you as an Indian should not be happy to let the whole be stripped into parts and sold for money and commoditized down to an entertainment or sport that you are "bored" by.

>but rather part of a whole discipline of preparing your body in order to sit down and meditate for long periods of time.

The implication being that this is the sole purpose of Yoga and there is no benefit in viewing it as yet another point of exercise? A hypothetical:

I have no interest in meditating for long hours, but practicing yoga and the "it helps you calm down" kool-aid that marketers promote actually helps me. It's not the "real thing", and I have an inkling that without the spiritual aspect I am missing out on a lot. However, I continue to practice it since I derive some benefits from doing so, and have no inclination to pursue the matter deeper.

^ I honestly see nothing wrong with the above scenario. I would accept someone who "dabbles" in Yoga without caring for its spiritual aspects the same way I accept someone who lifts weights 5 days a week but completely ignores nutrition. Sub-optimal? Yes. Should it be condemned? No.

Cultural appropriation of something that many members of a culture promote is good. Without it, the only cultural symbols that people can get an intro to are those from European cultures.

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That said, I encourage people to read the Bhagavad Gita. As someone who has long appreciated meditation from a secular perspective, I've recently started reading it and am finding it valuable.

Right, spreading kindness, and also you'll just happen to make quite a lot of money

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