Why they don't want to hear this ? Isn't it something the Dutch people should be very proud of ?
> Why they don't want to hear this ? Isn't it something the Dutch people should be very proud of ?
Why would anyone be proud of living in a tax haven? The whole point of being one is to profit a little off of a race to the bottom by undermining your neighbor's tax system by helping their wealthy be greedier.
I fail to understand what is wrong with this. What is wrong in people keeping more of their wealth to themselves ? Heck I am not even very rich but would love to live in a country that does not tax and on top will be extremely proud to be the citizen.
If there is something wrong in lower taxes are you implying thay countries with 100% taxes (where you turn up everything you have to your government) would be somehow morally superior or something to be proud of ?
> I fail to understand what is wrong with this. What is wrong in people keeping more of their wealth to themselves ?
It's selfish and antisocial. These are pretty basic concepts, and I'm having a little trouble believing they could be unknown or hard to understand. I don't even think libertarian tracts are usually that extreme.
> If there is something wrong in lower taxes are you implying thay countries with 100% taxes (where you turn up everything you have to your government) would be somehow morally superior or something to be proud of ?
No, of course not. You seem to be conceiving things in very black and white way, which is almost never correct (e.g. there's a lot of space between 0% and 100%, rejecting 0% in no way implies a choice of 100%).
> which is almost never correct
I am not seeing either any black or white. You on other hand just called a lot of people antisocial. So people who move out of California to Nevada because they dont want to pay 10% (or 16%) state tax are antisocial ? Seems pretty black and white assertion to me.
Because greed leads people to harm and neglect others for gain? This is an extremely basic idea, and if it's still not clear to you, maybe you could watch a movie like Wall Street (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0094291/) and pay close attention to the Blue Star employees, how Gordon Gekko is willing to harm them, and how little he cares about it. It's probably not the best movie to teach this, but at least it's for adults and it came to mind easily. It feels like it would take more time than I'm willing to spend to explain it.
> Almost all the better societies, more livable societies are where people are free to pursue their own self interest (aka greed or profits). The one like North Korea where government beats people to be "non-greedy" appear to be pretty violent places to live.
It would probably do you well to just completely forget about North Korea. I'm no fan of it at all, but what you wrote reads like a rough rehash of some melodramatic libertarian propaganda meme (e.g. make and extreme idea like "greed is good" by placing it in opposition to a villain).
>> which is almost never correct
> I am not seeing either any black or white. You on other hand just called a lot of people antisocial. So people who move out of California to Nevada because they dont want to pay 10% (or 16%) state tax are antisocial ? Seems pretty black and white assertion to me.
You totally are seeing things in back and white (or more precisely, pairs of radical extremes). However, I'm not really willing to spend any more effort trying to hand hold you away from that.
Also, the free association argumentation thing is obnoxious. We're talking about tax havens (and a weird assertion that they should be pride-inducing), what do state resident income tax rates have to do with that? Those are very different things.
I accept a job offer than pays me more, that is greed but how does that cause anyone harm or cause neglect ? I think you are mistaking lack of compassion on charity to be greed. Which societies or successful people are not greedy in your case ?
> It's probably not the best movie to teach this, but at least it's for adults and it came to mind easily.
I do not take moral lessons from movies. There might be bad people everywhere but greed has very little to do with it.
> rough rehash of some melodramatic libertarian propaganda meme
This is just flamewar. Extreme ideas are a good way to compare principles. Once you agree that stealing is bad, it is irrelevant how much stealing is bad.
The example of North Korea has nothing to do propaganda meme. The observation, real observation is that people are giving arm and leg to move to areas with lower taxes, these areas also have reasonably well quality of life.
> We're talking about tax havens (and a weird assertion that they should be pride-inducing),
Using our logic (or rather lack of) "haven" is a socialist propaganda term. Some political entities have figured out that by having a "BETTER" tax regime they can invite more wealth and wealthy. Singapore an Hong Kong are such great examples. You in one stroke are calling them "greedy".
Not only is factually wrong, it is also pretty self righteous of you.
We just had our cabinet fall over a huge scandal in which the tax authority incorrectly reclaimed thousands of euro's from quite vulnerable people and ruined lives. But also wanted to cut dividend tax for ~<billion euro/year. Worst thing is, the same parties that are responsible for this mess are likely to be reelected.
Somehow half the general public cheers for the left opposition parties that want to remove these tax breaks because "it's not fair Apple is paying so little". But anyone with any economical sense understands that removing these tax breaks means Apple (and the rest) will leave Amsterdam. They have no significant operations there, just a postbox for the low taxes. The end result is that Dutch citizens will have to pay more tax.
The government knows this very well, but they can't publicly be very vocal about it because being a tax haven isn't very friendly to other countries that are missing out on taxes because of it.
So long story short: If you're Dutch stop complaining, you're saving tax. If you're any other European: you have every right to point out the Netherlands as a tax haven.
Why should forcibly taking money from other people have earned be a good thing ? A perhaps better idea would be just to ban Starbucks from the country and let government run a monopolized coffee shop. That might be a great achievement no ?
From what I can see the government must strive to achieve as much as possible while taking as little as possible from anyone else. Taxation is theft but has no real alternative but being cognizant of that underlying philosophy would help people find a moral compass.
What is strange about the Dutch tax haven situation is that Apple (as just one example) isn't really using any local services, they only have a PO box. So they're not paying to get something, they're only paying because everywhere else they would have to pay more. In effect they're robbing the US because they are using public services there, while not paying the tax that is normal for it.
But as a Dutch taxpayer: Thanks Apple!
In most of those cases, tax need not be the only way to pay for those services. Government in many cases uses coercion to monopolize some of the markets (roads, NHS etc.) which makes it necessary to tax people. But even if I agree with your basic premise then what % of tax revenue actually goes into funding something that is public good, at least in USA around 40% of it is pure waste.
> So they're not paying to get something, they're only paying because everywhere else they would have to pay more. In effect they're robbing the US because they are using public services there, while not paying the tax that is normal for it.
> they're robbing the US
Not true. Apple is keeping its own money to itself using perfectly legal mechanism. This is not very different from claiming spouse or child as an exemption for an individual.
> because they are using public services there
Paying taxes have absolutely nothing to with which services you use. US is happy to tax American citizens who do not even live in USA nor have anything to do with USA. NY state taxes folks who specifically refuse to stay or work in NY and yet work for NY based employers.
Tax is a classic redistribution mechanism, government collects whatever it can, spends (or supposed to spend on) whoever needs it. It has nothing absolutely nothing to do with what services one uses.
> But as a Dutch taxpayer: Thanks Apple!
That is something we can agree on and Thanks Denmark for making it happen. More money in the hands of US government is nothing but trouble for Americans and thrid world countris where they drop bombs.
The costs of setting up new offices would dwarf any nominal tax saving.
This isn't 'populist' it's pragmatic. Countries cost a lot to run, and if someone is renting space from you they should be paying their way - not getting an incredibly cheap ride because you happen to have some rooms (spaces) you want to fill.
The tax routes don’t take anything from any country.
Corporate tax is 25% here. But they use other routes to pay less than that.
And okay, Apple offers something unique, by why the fuck should I be subsidising a coffee company? They do nothing a random mom-and-pop business can't do, they add nothing to the local economy whatsoever.
These sort of things probably fall under the category of fraud, wrongdoings, crime etc. any ways and I do not imply that you should be proud of these things. But having a lower tax rates etc. clearly is bringing in more business and more trade to Amsterdam and non of this is due to a scandal or fraud. You can definitely be proud of that achievement while denouncing the frauds and scandals committed by the tax authorities.
The megacorp tax practices are well publicized and scandalous. I think countries should focus on fostering innovation rather instead of racing to the bottom in taxes in a zero-sum game of getting companies to move HQs
No they did not. The scandal is about the reclaiming incorrectly and government institutions not doing anything for these people to have any recourse etc. This is the story: https://edition.cnn.com/2021/01/15/europe/netherlands-govern...
> But having a lower tax rates etc. clearly is bringing in more business and more trade to Amsterdam and non of this is due to a scandal or fraud
Not really, these businesses are just post boxes with no to only a few employees to be able to claim Dutch residence for tax evasion purposes or to take advantage of the lower tax rate.
> You can definitely be proud of that achievement
It's not my achievement. It's hard to be proud of a scheme that deprives my own and other countries of tax income that could be used for the greater good.