Hacker News Reader

Comment by hellojason | Hacker News Reader

Avid Windows user here. I had to explain myself so many times to coworkers that I wrote this list [0] to point out differences that users may not be aware of. This list is 4 years old a this point, so a few of the items are no longer true, but overall it still holds water.

I've been forced to use Mac for work for several years now, and I still feel jailed in my productivity compared to Windows. The biggest, most crucial difference that Mac users don't seem to know they're missing is how every single Windows dialog box acts like a complete version of Windows Explorer. The Mac's save and open dialog boxes are absolutely infuriating. Also, why can't I just create a markdown file in a folder, double click it so it opens in vscode, then start typing? Window management on Mac is nonexistent, how come window snapping isn't a native feature? Mission Control is like playing hide-and-seek, not managing windows.

[0] https://hellojason.net/blog/nitpicky-differences-between-win...

View on HN

> The biggest, most crucial difference that Mac users don't seem to know they're missing is how every single Windows dialog box acts like a complete version of Windows Explorer. The Mac's save and open dialog boxes are absolutely infuriating.

Consider the alternative that while it is infuriating to you, macOS users aren’t “missing” anything because we prefer it this way.

A common action on save and open dialog boxes is to drag a directory or file from somewhere else on top of them, which will switch the dialog to that selection. Some years ago, on a macOS beta, they changed this behaviour and it would instead move the path (i.e. the dialog acted like a regular Finder window) and power users hated it. By the final version it again behaved like it used to, and I’m glad.

> Consider the alternative that while it is infuriating to you, macOS users aren’t “missing” anything because we prefer it this way.

LOL!

> drag a directory or file from somewhere else on top of them, which will switch the dialog to that selection. Some years ago, on a macOS beta, they changed this behaviour and it would instead move the path...power users hated it.

Huh? Dragging and dropping things into modal dialogs sounds like a terrible way to do anything.

The limitation of the macOS file dialogs have nothing to do with dragging or dropping to or from external sources. The functionality that's missing from them are things like: Not being able to rename, move or delete a folder that you mistakenly created through the dialog.

Power users typically prefer having a function over not having it. I doubt any power user would lament being able to do these things I've mentioned.

1. Dragging and dropping is by far the easiest way to navigate to an already-open file or a file that you already have selected in another window. 2. You can delete and rename files and folders in the save dialog, no problem there.

This is the single most annoying thing about Windows. How do users cope? I copy the path of an already opened dialog and paste it, which is atrocious compared to dragging and dropping.

> Huh? Dragging and dropping things into modal dialogs sounds like a terrible way to do anything.

This sounds exactly like what the proxy icon functionality in macOS does.

Dragging oriented UI was fine on mouse era (still on Windows?) but now macOS' primary pointing device is trackpad. Dragging with trackpad isn't good.

> Dragging with trackpad isn't good.

Agreed for the default behaviour. But I always turn on three finger drag[1] (which used to be more discoverable) and it’s fine.

[1]: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204609

Three finger drag is good but sometimes trackpad don't have enough distance and a bit hassle.

I haven’t read the list in full, but some of the things you treat as impossible on macOS are trivial. On the first section alone, here’s two examples of not knowing about ⌥.

> Cannot get total file size of everything inside a folder

Press ⌥ with the context menu open and you’ll see it.

> OS X has a different concept of maximized that only does a true full screen, thus hiding your menubar and such.

And “only” is bolded. But again, press ⌥ and see the maximize icon (and behaviour) change.

One may argue what the “correct” default and optional/alternate behaviours should be (those are the names of the key: opt/alt), but they are there.

OS X has some shitty discoverability. I was required to use a macbook as my work system for a little over two years, and I never discovered those.

Would it not make sense to just put these kinds of things in the open? Why not have a fourth taskbar button? I don't remember seeing an option for maximize but not full screen anywhere, so I would just resize windows until I slapped Spectacle onto the system.

Not that I'm a windows user. I have a number of complaints related to usability on Windows as well.

I think I remember a setting in Finder's view options waaay back in System 7 that you could check to calculate folder sizes in list view. I usually left it off because it slowed down my (68k) Macintosh, but it was great if you had a screamin' fast PowerPC!

You can still do that, I always do.

Your list isn't great. Some of the items are out of date. Some were just not knowing how to do things, like dragging something to achieve your goal, rather than right-clicking. I'd like to help you out and explain in detail, but I'm on mobile. But even if I was a Windows guy, it's not a list to show off.

Edit: One example: "Explorer shows you the path tree to the current directory, and it lets you copy that path to the clipboard."

In Finder, press Command-Option-P to show and hide the path. And instead of using the clipboard, which might have something else in it you need, in Finder you drag the filename from the path to where you need it - a file dialog, the terminal, a document, wherever.

Also, you can drag individual parts of the path, so instead of being limited to copying the entire path, you can copy just the bits that you want.

And if you Option-drag one of those items into a terminal, it actually changes the directory to that location.

Again, it's just about not being familiar with how things work. That's not entirely your fault, since some options are hidden. But that's less common these days. Almost everything is exposed in the menu bar, with its keyboard shortcut.

Dragging selected items to copy/paste them is pretty universal. I know I’ve done that in Windows as well. Ironically, it’s not available in every Mac app - many won’t let you drag text or images out of them.

Dragging selected items to copy/paste them is pretty universal

Exactly. So I don't know why the parent is making an issue of what is clearly operator error. Or at least a lack of operator know-how.

Something I often forget when using Mac OS is that you can just drag the folder icon from the titlebar of the finder window directly to the terminal (or wherever you need the path). It's a neat trick that's saved me a lot of typing or copy/pasting, when I remember it's there.

Unfortunately, that has gotten more difficult in Big Sur8s Preview. It show the icon until you click the file name.

TexEdit keeps the old-style, as does Numbers, so I’m not sure what the preferred way is, nowadays, but I tend to move downloaded PDFs that way, so for me, it feels like it’s worse everywhere.

(Aside: looked at https://www.apple.com/macos/big-sur/ to see whether Preview’s new way is copied anywhere. That page clearly shows document based applications are becoming an endangered species)

That drove me nuts, but you can turn it off with a defaults setting. I don’t have it at hand but it’s easily googleable

It's super weird that your list just assumes the Windows way for things is "standard" or "normal" and the Mac way is wrong, when both paths are (most of the time) entirely arbitrary. E.g., Home and End behavior, delete key behavior.

As others have noted, your list also includes dings on the Mac that are factually inaccurate, so...

> It's super weird that your list just assumes the Windows way for things is "standard" or "normal" and the Mac way is wrong, when both paths are (most of the time) entirely arbitrary. E.g., Home and End behavior, delete key behavior.

To be fair, most "mac is better" list do the same.

Ultimately to each their own and let's all be glad we have both alternatives.

>To be fair, most "mac is better" list do the same.

That hasn't been my experience, but okay.

Well, things like the home/end behavior and back/delete key behavior are different on OS X but behave the same on Windows, most standard linux flavors, Sun OS, many BSD flavors, and Chrome OS (I'll give you the argument that this is just linux with a coat of paint), to name a few off the top of my head.

When you take that into consideration, OS X is the odd one out.

I do agree that some of the things in the list aren't correct though, and some are definitely more subjective.

I don't believe I've ever had a keyboard with Home/End keys. What do they do on OS X/Linux?

Home and End move the cursor to the beginning and the end of the line, respectively, on any computer except a Mac.

It's extremely unlikely that you've never had a keyboard with these keys!

Control a and e (the Emacs shortcuts everybody knows) work on all Mac applications. That’s why home and end work differently.

Vim user: I think you mean ^ and $

> (the Emacs shortcuts everybody knows)

[citation needed]

You have almost certainly had a keyboard with these, even if it was behind a fn key combo on a laptop.

The lack of window snapping is mind boggling to me. My home computer has lxde on it, which includes the feature.

Window snapping has been a native feature on macOS for years: https://osxdaily.com/2016/12/06/use-window-snapping-mac/

Different snapping, at least to what I’m used to. The snapping Windows offers is half and full screen windows with a keypress (or dragging against a wall). Mac does offer something similar, but only for full screen/split-full-screen mode.

You can open a menu with option-click and hold on expand icon and snap window to the side of the screen

TIL. Still less functional (no hotkeys) but good to know, regardless.

Discoverability could use some work.

> Different snapping, at least to what I’m used to.

Be that as it may, the post I responded to was commenting on the absence of a feature that isn’t absent. Wether you like or are accustomed to its behaviour is a different matter.

If the feature is significantly different (windows snapping into positions on the screen versus remaining within certain constraints), then the feature might as well not exist. That they're named the same is irrelevant.

Thanks falcolas, yeah, I definitely meant "window snapping" in the way that almost every other desktop environment, including LXDE and Windows, means it. Keyboard shortcuts to resize and reposition windows without changing display mode. Windows has the drag to edge which I like too (although I don't use Windows much anymore).

The fact that OSX would have a feature called "window snapping" that isn't really the same is similarly mind boggling.

By that logic, one could argue Windows doesn’t have window snapping (it has, but it’s significantly different from what some people are used to on the Mac, so it “might as well not exist”)

(Not making any claims about the usefulness of either feature)

The original context of this conversation was window snapping on Windows not being available on the mac. Given that context, I stand by my earlier statement.

Yeah that's not what OP is talking about. Windows lets you half-width maximize windows next to each other, then drag the border in between to resize both [0]. What you've provided is, essentially, a way to make it easy to line up the edges of your windows, which is a feature I largely consider unnecessary.

[0] https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/snap-your-window...

> Windows lets you half-width maximize windows next to each other, then drag the border in between to resize both

So does macOS[1] (and iPadOS).

[1]: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204948

FWIW, that's full screen mode only. I can't do that on option-Plus button sized screens.

You lose the menu bar and dock to full screen mode (they're hidden, more specifically).

Yupp. Magnet is the best alternative.

Also wtf does pressing the maximise button go full screen? Can't we have two buttons, one for maximise and one for fullscreen?

Check out Rectangle. It meets 90% of my use cases as someone that prefers the way Windows handles windows.

https://github.com/rxhanson/Rectangle

I never used Mac but I recently heard from a friend that on Mac you can't press enter to open a file, instead, you need to use Ctrl+O. Like what the hell?

(I'm not saying it has to be Enter, but a two-key shortcut seems very bad for an operation that is used so often, especially considering you can't even press them with left hand!)

Same goes to Delete.

Cmd-enter is the standard way. Hitting enter edits the file name. It’s definitely a weird choice.

Enter to rename is the most logical choice for the Finder, an app that manages files.

Wow, hard disagree. From a discoverability perspective, enter has the dictionary definition of "to go in to something" as in to enter a building for example, or in this instance to "enter" a file. Furthermore, single key shortcuts should be reserved for more frequent actions, eg enter vs Cmd-O. Enter as rename is not only unintuitive, but it's also an action which is performed less often than opening files.

The traditional interaction model of the Mac is that you select a file, and then choose a menu command to operate on it. Cmd-O is the keyboard shortcut for "Open".

Note that you can also use Cmd-down_arrow, because Cmd-up_arrow and Cmd-down_arrow can be used to navigate up and down the folder hierarchy, and the latter also works if you have a file selected rather than a folder.

Edit: Cmd-Delete will delete a file. I think the philosophy is that Cmd is used for commands, and Delete by itself is meant for text editing. One thing I like is that Cmd-Shift-Delete will empty the trash. I'm unaware of a keyboard shortcut for emptying the Recycle Bin on Windows, or any way to avoid the confirmation dialog when doing so.

>the latter also works if you have a file selected rather than a folder

Wait, how do you "navigate down the folder hierarchy" if you don't select a folder? There is no deeper hierarchy.

You do select a folder. I'm saying that Cmd-down means "go down into this selected folder", but it also works if the selected item is a file.

BTW, I didn't even know about Cmd-Enter until aidos mentioned it; so that makes 3 different shortcuts to open a file. Convenient! :-)

Ah, I understand now.

Windows is similar but with alt: Alt+up=up, Enter=down (or open). And there are also alt+left and alt+right as back and forward.

If we Mac users want to go through a bunch of files in a directory quickly, we usually press spacebar in Finder on the first file and use up/down arrow keys to navigate. Spotlight will open up each file in a read-only view and will handle basically anything - STLs can be viewed and rotated, CSVs will show in a spreadsheet format even if you don't have Excel or Numbers installed, MP3s will open in a mini player, C header files will appear with colored formatting. It's so handy.

Yeah I have seen the preview function, it definitely is pretty handy!

>I never used Mac but I recently heard from a friend

If you have to start your post this way, maybe reconsider if you're going to add anything.

From what I learned from other replies, there is indeed no way to open a file with one key so I guess the point stands, regardless.

(It’s Cmd-O, or Cmd-down-arrow.)

Hitting “enter” to open a file makes it too easy to do it accidentally. What if I didn’t mean to start up a huge app like a pro video editor or something, which takes five-ten seconds to start up?

Cmd-down-arrow is pretty darn easy to invoke from the keyboard, but not so easy that you risk opening a file you didn’t mean to.

On Mac I always install Shift it for window management. However, it works via keyboard only. I prefer to still be able to move windows to the edge of the screen without them getting tiled immediately.

Magnet is pretty good one too. It has key commands and sticky areas.

- https://magnet.crowdcafe.com/ or https://apps.apple.com/us/app/magnet/id441258766?mt=12

Spectacle is also pretty nice. I've used it for as long as I have been developing on macOS.

Spectacle is unmaintained. https://rectangleapp.com/ is a fork with active development.

I had no idea, thanks!

It has a replacement called Rectangle.

press `~` on open/save dialogs on a mac (also supports tab auto completion). It's a game changer. Also Windows is missing out natively... like space bar for preview on open/save.

Also ctrl+g turns the dialog into a larger dialog that's more like finder.

not for me...

Sorry. That should have been CMD+shift+g. Hard to recall from muscle memory when you can't try it in that moment.

The term "window snapping" must have some precise definition that I'm unaware of, because the Mac does have behaviors that I would call "window snapping":

- On the Mac, when you drag a window to a side or bottom edge of the screen, it will "catch" on the edge, making it easy to avoid dragging it partially off of the screen. In Windows, when I want to move a window to the edge of a screen, I have to be very slow and careful to get it just up to the edge without going over.

- Likewise on the Mac, windows will "catch" on the edges of other windows, making it easy to put windows up against each other with no overlap or intervening space

- If you click and hold the Maximize button, you get a menu that gives you the option to tile the window to the left or right half of the screen

So, what exactly is this "window snapping" feature that Windows has that the Mac doesn't? I'm genuinely clueless and curious.

The problem is that these features are not discoverable. Who would ever think of dragging a window by the maximize button?

Win-Left Arrow moves the window to the left hand side of the screen. If you have multiple screens, it will move it to the next screen with your next press. Ditto Win-Right. Win-Up maximizes, Win-down un-maximizes, then minimizes.

You can also drag windows against any edge, and get half-windows, maximized windows, etc. by default. And you’re not placed in full screen mode, losing the menu bar. I purchased an app to get similar (but still inferior) behavior in Mac.

Windows’ window management is, IMO, simply superior to Macs.

It's an awful feature to have on by default though. Whenever I'm in Windows, I can't seem to drag a window anywhere without Windows just deciding that I actually want to anchor it on the side and re-size it. NO! I just want to move the window a little. Jeez! There's probably a way to turn it off, but why on earth is that the default behavior? Fortunately I only use windows once a month or so, so I haven't been bothered to figure out how to disable this.

Also, I seem to recall if you "shake" a window while dragging it, it does something else unexpected. Great, now I need to have a surgeon's hands just to move my window around. Can you just let me drag my window in peace, Microsoft?

Yes I feel your pain in that one. There’s a way to turn this off in the settings... one of the first things I do with any new Windows setup.

Another major peeve of mine: Windows lets you drag a window so that its top edge goes outside the bounds of your display. It should stop when the top edge “bumps into” the upper bound of the display: I prefer to have most windows full-height, and I have to be extremely finicky and careful when dragging documents around in Windows. On Mac this is not an issue: I can “slide” full-height windows from side to side by dragging them slightly upwards as I drag them horizontally.

Snapping in Windows lets you drag a window against an edge of the screen to make it tile left/right/top (and bottom I think). I’m not sure how well it works on the “inside” edges of a multi-monitor desktop though.

The click-and-hold of OSX is relatively new, and there’s several apps that add the functionality anyway so no big deal.

What I don’t like of tiled windows on OSX is how the active one raises on the z-axis, and click-and-hold tends to be annoying when you’re in a hurry... on the other hand on Windows I often accidentally activate the tile shortcut and that’s also a hassle. But I’m just a fussy lad

> I’m not sure how well it works on the “inside” edges of a multi-monitor desktop though.

Like you would expect + some gripping when reaching the edge before passing over so it's easy to know if you're snapping or moving over the other screen.

> Snapping in Windows lets you drag a window against an edge of the screen to make it tile left/right/top (and bottom I think).

Corners too, I use it a lot on my 4k 40" to have 4x20" windows.

> I’m not sure how well it works on the “inside” edges of a multi-monitor desktop though.

"Some" pixels grace zone before escaping to another screen.

yes, but on mac it will make both apps in separate desktops and in windows is just simple window tiling

15 years ago people could not believe I used Mac as a development machine. At work I wasn’t allowed to connect to the network and I was mocked endlessly by my colleagues.

I used to tell them “one day, one day you’ll see!” We have well and truly arrived.

15 years ago people could not believe I used Mac as a development machine.

Are you sure it wasn't more than 15 years ago? Because the way I recall it, after 10.2 was released most devs seemed to concede that Macs could at the very least serve as a passable way of getting Unix on a laptop, and once Xserve RAID came out even some greybreads where at least considering the idea of putting Apple hardware in their server room (even though very few eventually did).

Positive. This is in the UK. At that stage even younger less corporate developers couldn’t understand it at all.

counter-point: I started seeing more and more developers carrying (personal) Macs in London in 2005 in pubs and at events and by 2007 99% of those I knew were using a Mac.

By 2007 many had a Mac laptop provided by their empoyers (myself included).

Of course, agree it wasn't the absolute majority (it;'s not the absolute majority today either) but far from rare depending on your circles

That list is a bit silly. One item is basically "Finder has a better preview feature, but you can get a better-better one in Windows with <third-party app>". At that point, pretty much all other items become invalid, since you can find Mac apps that will give you the required features in ways that are superior to anything Windows ships with. It's also slightly ignorant of MacOS features (like Zoomed windows). The only item I agree with is the window-management icons being too small and hard to reach - sadly the truth is that they don't want you to use them really, in modern macos you're largely supposed to jockey between fullscreen apps.

I'm no fanboy (in fact, I think I'll move off macos in the next year or so), and there is a lot to like in modern Windows, but that list doesn't really hack it.

> why can't I just create a markdown file in a folder,

Because you're "reasoning it wrong" (eh): you don't really want to "create a markdown file"! You want to write something and then store it as markdown. So you open a writing program then save the output as markdown. I'm not trying to attack you or persuade you of anything, I'm just explaining the different approach in terms of usability, the rationale behind the implementation choice.

I also agree that the stock save-dialogs in macos are somewhat less powerful than the Windows implementation, but they compensate with a more consistent handling of global shortcuts (what will appear on the left bar in Windows dialogs is something of a lottery).

Do you still find the save dismiss less powerful after they are expanded with Ctrl+g

you mean cmd-shift-g?

ctrl-g doesn't do anything for me (Mojave).

Reply on news.ycombinator.com