Man to pay £25,000 ($34,000) damages over negative TrustPilot review
bbc.com
bbc.com
It's a shocking lack of integrity, but not surprising, given the business model. Anyway, it's disappointing that TrustPilot gets any publicity for being anything credible.
Edit: A nice little touch is at the bottom of their website that says "See what our customers are saying about TrustPilot", with a hand-picked selection of reviews... from TrustPilot! About TrustPilot! Chef's kiss.
Edit 2: This is not to say that Trustpilot's intentions aren't necessarily good, and they may even be striving to provide neutrality. But the problem is that their business model is, by its very nature, antithetical to neutrality. And of course Trustpilot is not the only review site that has this issue, but it's definitely a site where this issue is glaringly apparent.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/yelp-accused-of-bullying-bu...
https://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-banks-yelp-20130420...
https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/yelp-blames-greedy-law...
Yelp's sales people can be aggressive, and it wouldn't surprise me if a rogue employee deceived a prospect to close a sale, but there is no way to pay to win. Yelp also does flag legitimate positive reviews sometimes, but the alternative is to be like Amazon where half the reviews are fake.
You can allege anything. Whether the allegations are true is another question. You only have to read the various lawsuits that have passed on this issue to see how flimsy these business owners' cases are.
It would be so easy to demonstrate that you could pay Yelp to remove reviews, if the capability exists. Someone would have done so by now.
All of the following can be true:
-Yelp removes obviously false reviews.
-Yelp does not remove obviously true reviews.
-It is better for your business' rating to pay Yelp.
Yelp is the arbiter of what constitutes 'false'. It stretches credulity to believe that Yelp taking payment from a business has no influence on this determination. Even sending paying and non-paying requests down different pipelines could result in more negative false reviews being removed for paying businesses. For instance, spending more time considering whether a review is false might lend itself to ultimately removing more reviews. This needn't be intentional.
So, the question in my mind is whether Yelp deserves the reputation; rather than whether any specific allegation is true in exactly the way it is alleged. If the allegations about their salespersons' claims are true the answer must be that they not only deserve the reputation, but that they built it themselves.
(As a Yelp user, I already consider them too shady to use. Maybe they've changed, but their deceitful links that pushed me to open their app were so frustrating and off-putting I've quit them entirely.)
I just had a look at their pricing page and it doesn’t seem to say anything about this.
Maybe a screen shot would do if it’s something you only see when you have the plan?
They also say "Curate your Trustpilot Company Profile Page through ... adding authentic content". The term "authentic content" is code for "positive reviews", because you'll be able to flag any negative reviews as inauthentic.
And of course you can also look at reviews of Trustpilot itself from third parties, i.e. websites where Trustpilot doesn't have a paid/boosted account, for instance: https://www.reviews.io/company-reviews/store/trustpilot
Edit: I speak from personal experience as a small business owner, described in more detail below.
Yelp etc needs the average review to be somewhat useful so people actually trusts the Star ratings. However, they can still accomplish that while distorting a significant number of reviews.
The simple fact Yelp lets companies pay to highlight a favorable review is IMO enough to destroy their credibility. Worse they directed customers through GrubHub for an unearned commission which is as far as I can tell simple fraud. But, that’s not what people are alleging here.
They say that, but they decide which reviews are legitimate, and they're more likely to decide that positive reviews are legitimate, if a business is paying them.
On the other hand, my experience pre-pandemic was that Yelp had the only reliable database of local USA businesses' hours of operation (there is probably now no way to know other than phone calls).
In fact, I know a business who complained he got more calls from Google trying to update their maps database than he got from real customers!
So THAT'S what all the humans at Google are up to, while their bots are busy locking legitimate user and developer accounts!
How cute. You think that these are humans calling from google. No biological human has represented google by phone since the 90s. It is all androids and chatbots.
https://ai.googleblog.com/2018/05/duplex-ai-system-for-natur...
Do you have any evidence of that?
I have several unsolicited 5-star reviews for my business that have been flagged as "not currently recommended." Yet despite fighting off their sales reps for years my business is the best rated business in my city in my category.
Based on my experience, the Yelp hate is just sour grapes from businesses that are reluctant to bend over backwards to make every customer happy.
Not too many business that do that stay in business for long. "The customer is always right" if not taken with many grains of salt will bury you when you get just the right customer (who will directly reference the mantra).
One key to making it work is to invest in long term relationships with your clients. A transaction with a client you have an established relationship with is much less risky than a transaction with a stranger.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1149078
Not sure if the policies have changed since then, but I am inclined to believe him.
But I second this. Yelp won't remove legitimate reviews, even for paying businesses. You can pay for priority in search listings and to show up in the Similar and Nearby sections, but that won't help you get negative reviews removed.
As I speak, there are 2.5 star restaurants being promoted in every search I do for nearby restaurants. If Yelp removed the negative reviews as people claimed, they wouldn't be at 2.5 stars right now.
(It's true that some individual sales reps claim Yelp will do this if you pay them, but those are individual sales reps trying to hit a sales or bonus goal.)
It might be true, but a claim that undermines the entire business.. warrants at least a link or an anecdote.
On the business side all I’ve heard from Yelp Business was that they will let more bad reviews slide thus lowering your rating if you do not pay for their protection racket. Also, paying them gives good reviews that would otherwise be rejected now allowed as acceptable.
Maybe those businesses were not paying for the “premium” service tier that includes Yelp sending a photographer to your business to then create a video for you with an annual plan.
I have managed restaurants and talked to several Yelp reps. It’s difficult to trust online reviews.
That's definitely wrong, as my Yelp profile has zero friends and no profile picture, and all of my reviews are still up, when viewing the businesses logged out, across multiple devices using different IP addresses.
I have managed restaurants and talked to several Yelp reps.
I have spoken to restaurants on behalf of the Chamber of Commerce investigating this issue, and found no evidence that these claims are true.
I've had my legitimate Yelp reviews shadow-removed (I could see the review on the computer it was made on, but not others). So they absolutely did at one point remove/hide reviews.
-person with actual experience
They were pretty terrible people. Always talking about how they were going to "get rich and leave all of you behind".
A company I once worked for required employees to post positive reviews of its app, as a condition of employment.
This started shortly after I left, so I'm grateful I never had to deal with that.
The BBB you might be referencing about is the BBB of LA, which no longer exists and this 2015 article mentions: https://money.cnn.com/2015/09/30/news/better-business-bureau...
That BBB was then merged into the Silicon Valley BBB, a totally different set of people and operations.
On Yelp you can buy placement in search results (or on other restaurants' listings in the "Nearby" or "Similar" sections) but they won't remove negative listings for pay. It's certainly possible that individual sales reps will offer that service if they are desperate to hit sales or bonus goals, but Yelp won't actually do it, since the review review team is separate from the sales team.
Source: Personally interviewed nearly a hundred local businesses on behalf of the local Chamber of Commerce.
Nearly impossible if you're a non-paying business on Yelp.
Yelp is a scam, but you pay the piper because their local SEO is too good.
I don't think this is true. If this was true, then any sane business would pay the $400 and have a decent record on TP.
The BBB pioneered this business model. Yelp perfected it. This is just another flavor for another market.
There 100% needs to be regulation around any kind of review site. If you can pay and change how the reviews look it is 100% corrupt and shouldn’t be allowed.
There are several big brand retailers in the UK who don't pay Trustpilot; you can tell by how many negative reviews they have manged to amass.
Another 'benefit ' of paying Trustpilot is that you can have gold stars underneath your search and ads listings. Google seem happy to to be part of the scam too.
Might be wrong, but glassdoor does it too
Removed because it exposes interview process.
That's not my experience. Here in the UK at least they display reviews in chronological order, newest first including for "unclaimed" businesses".
That is certainly not off-topic in this context. The horrid behavior (or business model) of TrustPilot is relevant (and immoral), and should be known.
Every time I see one of those "4.2 / 5 stars on TrustPilot" banners, I'll start thinking about the extortion money to keep hiding those negative reviews; what a scam..
The diff between 1.8 and 4.2 business is that the latter sends mass emails to the customers saying "write us a nice review on TrustPilot, and maybe you'll win a $50 gift card". (Although, in case of the app, we just asked nicely, and many people clicked the banner and went on to give 4* or 5* ratings in the store, for free).
Having said that, if company doesn't care about 1.8 rating and has no actions to change, it's probably a bad sign...
I wish I could give TrustPilot a 1 star review right now :-)
Maybe I am missing the context of big businesses, but I will often write a good review of a company (say on trustpilot) I have used, with no reward to myself. Even well known ones. The most recent example being Scan the hardware retailer in the UK. I have though also done it for reward too, so I am not completely altruistic!
I figure that this gives my negative review some credibility, and it also helps the good businesses.
I wonder if actually enforcing this might help things. If someone can't find anything positive to say about five other companies, I don't think I'm interested in their negative review.
They shake down companies involved with them and give add very little of value. If anything, they are harmful to ecommerce as it makes people more skeptical of reviews
Seems like any form of reviews — Amazon, Yelp, TrustPilot — or even independent reviews (that are often given a product in exchange for “their honest review”, can’t be trusted anymore.
Someone will find a way to game the system.
We’ve gone from being ignorant, to being informed, back to being ignorant again — or worse, ignorantly mislead.
Nice business you got here, would be a shame if someone said something bad about it online. You know we can make that go away...for a price.
On the other hand, sites that let you remove bad reviews or showcase good ones are running a 21st-century protection racket.
> Thanks for your review on Trustpilot. > >Based on your review, Curve would like a little more information about your experience. This will help them write a more useful >reply to you. It'll also help them verify that you’ve had a genuine experience with their business.
>Of course, it’s totally up to you what you share.
"verify" vs. "totally up to me" are different things.
I read the text of these reviews. Sometimes the reviewer had unrealistic demands. If this worst case is acceptable, I proceed. If it is a choice between competitors, it often comes to the least bad option.
If there are no reviews under 5 stars, I'm suspicious. If a company replies to reviews, I mentally flag it as doing reputation management - not something you tend to need do when providing a service your customers love.
It is amazing how many nightmare companies have 4-5 star trustpilot reviews.
>If someone leaves a negative review of your business on TrustPilot, you can have it taken down
no, they can flag it but neither that nor the money they pay as subscription has any direct effect on the review being taken down, this solely lies on the discretion of moderators according to the terms of usage.
>they can prioritize the negative review to be shown above the positive ones
no, like hackernews trustpilot has a a scoring mechanism that is quite easily explained and also reflects on what is being shown, look here: https://support.trustpilot.com/hc/en-us/articles/201748946-T...
>It's a shocking lack of integrity
trustpilot has the most open and transparent platform for reviews, bad actors get marked publicly no matter if they are companies(free or paying) or reviewers.
If you're searching for reviews about London law firm Summerfield Browne on Google and are lucky enough to find this post, consider if you want to work with a business that will attack people posting reviews about them. Can you really trust the reviews you might already have read, or are they just suppressing all the negativity?
Cavity wall and subsidence solicitors are rather less interesting.
This appears to be their website: https://www.summerfieldbrowne.com/
Looks like they might've done better to spend the effort making a website that looks like it was made in the last decade before attacking people for negative online reviews.
The guy shamelessly lied and called the law firm a "scam".
> The firm took legal action, stating that this was untrue and defamatory.
Seeing as he pulled the old "give me back my money and I'll delete that" it sure sounds like the typical leave a bad review for leverage strategy, his mistake was straight up lying.
-
I got in a dispute with an apartment management over my deposit and left a review with dozens upon dozens of well documented missteps they had taken during my tenancy complete with pictures. I didn't lie and I didn't embellish...
20 minutes later I got a call that my deposit was being refunded in full and asking if I could kindly take down my review.
I hadn't lied in it so I never took it down, but I did condense it, removed the pictures and mentioned they had returned my deposit finally.
See Elon Musk calling a guy a "pedo" repeatedly with zero evidence, because he pissed him off online. Although there were other issues in that case.
The UK has way more strict libel laws than the US. If you lie about someone it's a LOT easier to get a civil judgment against you. Hency why a ton of magazines/newspapers have been successfully sued over libel whereas in the US this almost never happens.
If a business really wrongs someone, people tend to be willing to go into detail about how they were wronged. Especially since it sucks and if you're willing to write a review, you're probably also willing to make it one that informs others specifically what went wrong so they can avoid it.
That is not what liberal means. In fact the confusing setence in your previous comment has basically the opposite meaning than you meant: more liberal libel laws would be less strict.
I took "more liberal" to mean "more left" as in the political spectrum of Left vs Right, Liberal vs Conservative because that's the only definition that really fits the context of the sentence...
Despite the fact that Liberalism has much more to do with Liberty than liberal use of government, Liberals today certainly want to use the government liberally to make new laws for solving any small discomfort.
I don't claim to know as much about the difference between Republicans and Democrats as Americans themselves, but I find it very surprising to think that Democrats would oppose freedom of speech particularly more strongly - I'd actually presume it to be the other way round (maybe based on my own conflation of "liberal" in the US sense and in the original political sense).
With all that said, the way the original commenter referred to liberal as simply meaning "more ... use of law" is pretty hard for me to take seriously. Is apartheid more liberal than racial equality because it requires more laws? Come on. It comes off as an attempt to slander (ironically!) liberalism by claiming any bad law is liberal because liberalism uses laws.
Republicans/right/conservatives are the party of small government - hence the word conservative describing them. They favor free markets, which is to say: Don't make too many laws getting in the way of business!
The very meaning of the word Conservatism is "commitment to traditional values and ideas with opposition to change or innovation." [3] Less change = less laws. The conservative right weren't the ones behind the Civil Rights movement in the US - that was the liberal left, creating more laws controlling things like school segregation and so forth.
So, I think you can see that "more (vs less) use of law" is absolutely one of the overarching themes at play in our political scene. Even as a complete layman who actively avoids politics I wasn't able to avoid this knowledge. I think you can confirm it with a few quick searches to get a feel for what kinds of things people have said about either party [4] [5] [6].
[0] https://www.americancommitment.org/content/democrats-repeal-...
[1] https://reason.com/2019/08/12/every-democrat-in-the-senate-s...
[2] https://www1.nyc.gov/site/cchr/law/legal-guidances-gender-id...
[3] https://www.google.com/search?q=define+conservatism
[4] https://www.google.com/search?q=democrats+against+freedom+of...
[5] https://www.google.com/search?q=democrats+want+to+control+ev...
[6] https://www.google.com/search?q=republicans+want+to+control+...
Yes, conservatives favour smaller government and fewer laws - actually that term means exactly that here in British politics too. But that doesn't mean any extra laws are necessarily liberal. Go back to my example of legislated racism to see that, which is clearly not liberal (in every sense of the word) despite requiring more laws and bigger government. Like the original comment I replied to, your comment and those sources come across a shallow attempt to insult Democrats by saying "look, this bad thing would require a law, and Democrats love laws, therefore they must want this bad thing!".
Maybe in this case my distance, as an outside observer, is actually helpful. I can see pretty clearly that Democrats wanting to limit freedom of speech is a rumour that doesn't reflect what Democrats actually want.
You're arguing with me because I made a comment that stemmed from my own perception of politics. Now that I've clearly explained the reasoning for my comment, you're contorting yourself to prove that my perception is wrong. In the face of empirical evidence you've given nothing more than your opinion.
> I can see pretty clearly that Democrats wanting to limit freedom of speech is a rumour that doesn't reflect what Democrats actually want.
They want to control speech. I've shown a law, one among many that they've enacted, which proved my point. In response to that you applied some strawman argument about it not being "freedom of speech" when nobody ever said that.
I don't think you're arguing in good faith, so I'm going to end this here.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_liberalism_in_the_Unite...
"Mr Bradshaw submitted that the gravity of the Defendant's libel is at least as serious as that in Monroe, and is comparable with that in Doyle. Accordingly, general damages award of £24,000 to £30,000 would be appropriate, subject to his concession that the claim was limited to £25,000.
In respect of special damages which were claimed at £300 per day, Mr Bradshaw submitted that on the basis of Ms Rhode's evidence there had been a significant reduction in enquires for a period of at least 6 weeks which would equate at £300 per day to a sum of £12,600.
In my judgment the claim for special damages is not made out. Ms Rhodes evidence is simply not directed to this point and no detailed financial or accounting evidence has been provided. Whilst I accept the Defendant has chosen not to appear and contest the figure the burden remains on the Claimant to prove its loss. I am however satisfied that reduction in the number of instructions was caused by the defamatory review and has caused the Claimant some financial loss. As Mr Justice Warby said in the case of Brett Wilson LLP v Persons unknown, responsible for the Operation and Publication of the website www.solicitorsfromhelluk.com [2015] EWHC 2628 [29] the loss of a single instruction can cost a firm tens of thousands of pounds (and in some instances more). In the circumstances I am satisfied that an award of general damages in the sum of £25,000 would adequately reflect the seriousness of the defamation, the financial loss which has occurred and the purpose of vindication."
Musk successfully used the hyperbole defense against the much more serious potential libel "pedo", though admittedly that was in US court.
> In the review, Mr Waymouth alleged: "I paid upfront for a legal assessment of my case.
> "But what I got was just the information I sent them, reworded and sent back to me."
Which sounds pretty scammy to me.
More importantly, he called it a scam, and it isn't clear that that is a lie. He alleges that he paid for work, but they just rephrased the documents he gave them. Why wouldn't that be a scam?
If you look at the reviews from before this story broke, you would see that the answer is no, they are not suppressing all the negativity. They mostly had positive reviews, but there were a few that were quite negative.
https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/QB/2021/85.html
If I had to summarise, I would say that this is a case of a consumer doing the most emotionally satisfying thing in response to receiving a poor service, rather than what is legally allowed. As the judgement says, the defendant never attempted to complain or ask for a remedy from the solicitors themselves as he is legally entitled to.
> "Also it was apparent that the Defendant made no attempt to engage in the Claimant's dispute resolution process. A complaint should always be the first stage in resolving any issues of customer satisfaction."
The judgement also explains that in order for the defence of "speaking the truth" to succeed, he would need to submit evidence that others had been scammed by the same company - apparently the evidence of just a single datapoint is not enough:
> "I recognise that in the context of an application for summary judgment I must not conduct a mini-trial but it seems to me the Defendant's allegations are so bold that in the complete absence of any credible material to support them I can conclude there is no real prospect of them succeeding at trial. I also take into account that the highpoint of the material submitted by Defendant is that he is unhappy with the service provided by Claimant."
So while it seems that in certain cases, the correct response to receiving a poor service would be to leave a negative review, it seems the law does not agree.
What bullshit legal reasoning. If you don't wait on hold on some company's help line for them to probably tell you to pound sand, that can be used against you in court?
Maybe an analogy to sales would make this more understandable: If I was selling computers and the laptop I sold you had some serious issues, you cannot immediately turn around and call me a scammer. Because it might not be true, actually there is a more likely explanation that I didn't know about the issues with the laptop.
Now if you would talk to me instead and I would insist that there couldn't possibly be an issue with the laptop and charge you for the faulty product, you _might_ call me a scammer. (Maybe one single instance of this wouldn't even be enough. Maybe you would even need to prove that I did in fact know about the problem with the laptop)
On the other hand you can definitely leave a review saying that you received a bad product. You would not be required to talk to the company to be able to do that.
Edit: To further elaborate a bit because I think people in this thread are having some weird reactions to this ruling: It's pretty normal that you cannot go around and tell lies that hurt somebody's business. If you think about it this is very normal. I cannot stand in front of a bakery with a sign that says "The bread in this bakery contains dangerous amounts of lead" if that is not in fact true. And if nobody buys bread anymore because of my sign, I will be liable for the damages incurred.
This is less clear if my sign says: "In my opinion the bread in this bakery tastes funny." Because this is an opinion rather than a fact.
But in the case at hand we are talking about somebody calling a company a "scam solicitor". That's mostly a factual statement, you could prove that the company is either doing regular business or that they are scamming people. If the defendant is not able to prove that they are in fact a scam business, it's very reasonable to assume that he is liable. The concrete damages incurred are however debatable in my opinion.
The individual leaves a review for the software developer saying “I paid upfront for help with my software. But what I got was just the Stack Overflow information I sent them, reworded and sent back to me. Another scam developer.”
If the developer uses the site the review was left on to obtain business and they can demonstrate a specific monetary loss after the review was posted, they have claims for damages. A non-trivial portion of a software developer’s job is looking stuff up on Stack Overflow, so applying that knowledge using their experience isn’t scammy at all.
Details of the legal advice provided are missing, but the same could be true. Client sends contract and seeks advice on what their obligations are upon contract termination, and the law firm responds by rewording the portion of the contract which spells out their obligations. If they find the obligations to be obvious, then maybe they didn’t need legal advice in the first place. If they don’t understand the quoted obligations, they should follow up asking for clarification. But saying “another scam solicitor” is libelous.
And isn’t his offer to remove the review in exchange for a refund considered extortion?
Over the top example but I think it drives the point. People don't want to experience bad service.
But most of the time a bad interaction can be resolved via the help line or a dispute process.
But even if that fails doesn't make the shop a scam. It makes them a bad shop. You can say so in your review since "bad shop" is a subjective opinion and not a statement of fact. "scam" is not only an objective fact but also something illegal so it's going to require some evidence to back that up.
And yes, that can be used against you in court. If the defendant had gone through the dispute process, it is more likely the court would have atleast partially sided with them, if they showed up in court (which they also didn't) and claimed to have been emotionally distraught or similar when writing that review over the cost or process of whatever happened.
This is the difference between freedom of speech as it is in the US and freedom of opinion more commonly deployed in Europe. Statements of fact require you to have some kind of proof. The level of proof will differ depending on what it's about, but insinuating that someone is a scammer will require you to show that to be fact.
Basically corruption.
>Defendant made no attempt to engage in the Claimant's dispute resolution process.
That worries me. I have to contact the organization and jump through their hoops before I leave a poor review?
Hopefully that's not the only standard here and just some additional information added to the rest.
If I paid a mechanic to put on new tires, but he just rotated my tires instead and said that he had fulfilled his side of the deal - is that not a scam?
This is kind of a surprise to me and why I thought it was worth bringing up. Wouldn't it be nice if this issue was clarified in the BBC article perhaps with some helpful advice about how to deal with poor service or indeed genuine scammers while avoiding being accused of libel.
It even says that couching the statement in an opinion "To me it was a scam" wouldn't be sufficient to avoid this. Would it all have been saved if he'd said "It was like a scam"?
It also says that the claimaint's belief that "after a single review went up, we saw a drop in inquiries" (para) is sufficient for £25,000 of damages! That has to be considered outrageous, surely?
That said, while I dislike Trustpilot, and while I think this case likely has merit, it sets some dangerous precedents with regards to the ability to complain in a public forum.
The bit about lack of engagement with a complaints process is one that worries me, many companies have terrible complaints processes that are designed to respond only to particular types of complaint acceptable to them (often ones they can claim are an issue with other companies), and they become a black hole if your complaint doesn't fit the right format. Trustpilot's lack of structure here is an advantage and a way to hold businesses to some account.
I did notice "invite an unlimited number of customers to write verified reviews" though. https://uk.business.trustpilot.com/plans
Much like amazon reviews they absolutely cannot be trusted to be a representation of the truth
This is a suitable problem to be solved by decentralised system.
Depressingly is also means the most shady companies that will abuse systems like this, will also seem to have a sparkling reputation - actually harming customers if they rely on these sites.
That would also be open to abuse. It's difficult to stop dishonest PR firms (or anyone else) from flooding positive or negative comments.
Does anyone have any ideas how to solve this?
If you are happy to pay for this, then there are a variety of options with a sliding cost/usefulness/accuracy scale.
If you are looking for reliable, accurate, balanced reviews conducted by anonymous ethical independent agents, and you don’t think consumers of that information should pay for it, then I believe the answer is there is no perfect solution that satisfies all those constraints simultaneously.
In this case he called them a scam solicitor but never explained why, which he did in trial "I paid upfront for a legal assessment of my case. But what I got was just the information I sent them, reworded and sent back to me."
From the sounds of it, if he mentioned that in the review he would be in the clear.
I think the key point, and one in your favor, is the judges comments. Why would he even elaborate on the reason for his ruling if it’s a default judgment?
Not the brightest bulb this guy.
That said, I hope that "scam" is common enough vernacular that any actual defence would have managed to convince them that it's a customer airing a grievance and not actually accusing them of a crime.
Below, I pasted the review, followed by a bit from the judge. Written word has to meet a number of criteria to be libelous, but the core of the decision, I think, was that calling something a "scam" is a statement of fact and not opinion. https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2013/26/section/3/enact...
""""*A total waste of money another scam solicitor* [Person X] left the company half way through my assessment and the replacement was useless. I paid upfront for a legal assessment of my case, but what I got was just the information I sent them, reworded and sent back to me. No new information or how to proceed or what the law says or indeed the implications of what was done. I Just got their false assumptions, full of errors showing a lack of understanding for the situation and the law. Once they have your money they are totally apathetic towards you. You will learn more from forums, you tube and the Citizens advice website about your case, for free"""
And a small bit from the judge's decision-- """"An allegation of dishonesty, fraud or attempted fraud will usually fall fairly and squarely on the side of fact rather than opinion. The same is true also, as I have already mentioned, where the allegation is of "reasonable grounds to suspect". Accordingly, I cannot allow a pleading to go forward in the form of paragraph 19A. It must be struck out.""""
0: https://uk.trustpilot.com/review/www.summerfieldbrowne.com
Thing is, in this case the can be doing exactly the right and wrong thing for the same reasons. There doesn’t seem to be a win here except to not be a publisher of reviews that will (intentionally) upset unpaying and please your paying customers.
I liked the old internet.
Where people would generally conduct themselves in a cordial manner. We would not engage in doxxing, brigading, posting negative reviews of goods or services we have not used, impotently try to manipulate search engines and we would not incite others to do so.
I have used Internet since 1989. Of course not at home, because that didn't exist.
In the early days every Internet user was implicitly trust-worthy. They all worked at universities or the like and meeting a scammer was highly unlikely, basically unheard of. I have visited several of them on another continent, just introduced by email. We helped each other buying goods that you could not buy in your country of residence before Amazon existed. We exchanged collectibles like paper money. It just worked, the check was in the mail a week or 2 later.
The first thing we had to learn is that aol.com addresses could not be trusted. That was still kind of easy, but since then it's only been downhill.
I didn't lie in my review of Sommerfield Browne and them suing their own client for gain shows everyone what they are. Their friends and family will back them up, as will the other lawyers. I submitted my case based on written law and the judge said it did not apply to me and ordered me to omit the law from my submission, before the trial hearing. The fact is the judge put £6,000 costs on me before the case was even heard - I was literally priced out of justice. I could not attend or I would be accepting these costs. I cannot fight a rich solicitor in front of a biased judge. Seeing there was no justice here I decided not to give the court legitimacy by attending.
Cunning plan, that.
Wouldn't there be fee shifting in the UK? By that I mean that the losing party pays the winning party's legal costs. That's supposed to be the default in the UK. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_rule_(attorney%27s_fee...
> Seeing there was no justice here I decided not to give the court legitimacy by attending.
In most jurisdictions there is a higher court you can appeal to if you don't get the result you wanted at the trial court. Denying the trial court's legitimacy and refusing to participate in the judicial process will not help that appeal.
I had to deal with a fair share of negative Trustpilot reviews. Some people are very good at expressing their dissatisfaction with the service. They explain why, what,and when it gone wrong. Those,even if it's 1 star review,are delight to read and act upon,as they often give a very different perspective compared of those inside the business. This is about 10% customers. Majority express dissatisfaction in a rushed manner with lack of facts and often unrealistic expectations. The rest 10-10% are are simply in a coocoo land and can often be described as those who go to McDonald's with the expectations of 3 star Michelin restaurant. Having said that, Google reviews is even worse for the business with almost no control over what and who post the reviews.
Also (and I realize this is tangential to your post), the idea of having to explain why you are unhappy is ridiculous in my view. This is a common device I see, asking people to explain themselves until they have reduced the problem to little things that dont seem to important, then pretending there isn't really a problem. I am far more interested in overall net sentiment towards a place than in the specific, and almost always probably minor, reasons people were unhappy. A dirty look or cold entree here and there don't really matter, but a pattern of many being dissatisfied enough to give a negative rating does.
I would probably agree if it was just that. Nowadays review sites are like a massive neon sign hanging above your shop saying '2 star review!!!'. That's often all people see before even having a chance to interact with the business. Reviews also get aggregated, so for instance on Just Eat, if I give 5 stars for delivery and 2 for food quality, the overall score would still be OK( which,in this case, makes it easier for the business but less informative for the customer). Also (and I realize this is tangential to your post), the idea of having to explain why you are unhappy is ridiculous in my view.
>Also (and I realize this is tangential to your post), the idea of having to explain why you are unhappy is ridiculous in my view.
Whenever I visit a pub or restaurant,I pay attention to the state of the toilets because it's often a good sign how serious they take the whole thing. I've been to places where the food is amazing but the place itself is filthy. So I can go and leave a review saying the place is shit.. The owner of the place would have no idea how to improve/change/fix. Now if I go and say the food is good but they need to clean the place, that's something the business can work with,should they decide to, and refusal to improve a known issue,as you said, would result in more people complaining about the same.
>First, the defence of honest opinion. The Claimant submits that the defence of honest opinion cannot succeed in circumstances were the words used convey an allegation of fraud. Mr Bradshaw referred me to the case of Wasserman v Freilich [2016] EWHC 312 (QB), an unreported decision of Sir David Eady sitting as a High Court judge. At paragraph 16 of his judgment Sir David said:
> > "The common sting in the various natural and ordinary meanings, pleaded in paragraph 27 of the particulars of claim, is that the Claimant was dishonest. That has generally been regarded as a factual allegation. It has long been recognised that "the state of a man's mind is as much a fact as the state of his digestion": Edgington v Fitzmaurice (1885) 29 Ch D 459. Juries are deciding on every day of the week, as a matter of fact, whether a particular Defendant was, or was not, dishonest. Accordingly, it is an allegation which in the context of libel is readily understood as being susceptible to a plea of truth under s.2 of the 2013 Act (as was the case with justification). It is not thought to be a matter of opinion: nor can one convert an allegation of dishonesty (or, for that matter, of murder or rape) into a matter of opinion by merely inserting in front of it a formula such as "I believe ..." or "she thinks ...": see e.g. Hamilton v Clifford [2004] EWHC 1542"
>And at paragraph 22 of his judgment he said:
> > "An allegation of dishonesty, fraud or attempted fraud will usually fall fairly and squarely on the side of fact rather than opinion. The same is true also, as I have already mentioned, where the allegation is of "reasonable grounds to suspect". Accordingly, I cannot allow a pleading to go forward in the form of paragraph 19A. It must be struck out."
>Here Mr Bradshaw submits that the allegation of dishonesty made that the Defendant is that it is "a scam solicitor", has the plain meaning that the Claimant is dishonest and fraudulent. The Defendant seeks to present this as an opinion. Mr Bradshaw argues this is impermissible, the Defendant is putting forward the Claimant's dishonesty as a matter of fact and cannot simply say by way of defence "this is my opinion". In the circumstances I accept the law is as stated in Wasserman v Freilich and am satisfied Mr Bradshaw's submission is correct, with the result the defence of honest opinion should be struck out.
[0] https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/QB/2021/85.html at paragraphs 15 and 16
[0] https://www.findlaw.com/injury/torts-and-personal-injuries/w...
My argument isn't that, it's to challenge the idea that calling something a scam can ONLY mean I'm accusing them of fraud.
>First, the defence of honest opinion. The Claimant submits that the defence of honest opinion cannot succeed in circumstances were the words used convey an allegation of fraud.
The foundation of this argument is to challenge the assumption the words actually convey an allegation of Fraud.
It would get pretty deep into the evolution of language/multiple meanings and slang and probably isn't worth fighting, but I still think it's a valid (or at least interesting) defense.
Trustpilot: "this profile has been temporarily closed for new reviews."
On one side as a consumer it's incredibly frustrating when you feel "wronged" - and whilst it's meant to be a 'review' it seems it's mostly used to get attention to fix a problem. So people use it as way to blackmail/last resort the business into sorting something. Which is kind of understandable, but too often the TP review goes up after 24 hours (or even before contacting anyone/actually trying to resolve a problem), even though the CS team doesn't work weekends, or repeatedly messaging on socials/emails keeps dropping the ticket to the back of the queue (and NO ONE EVER explains that to the customer) - so they feel the complaint isn't being seen (which it isn't).
For all you hope people will understand some negatives are inevitable - it genuinely affects sales (in both directions, if you get it right). And as others have pointed out - good luck if you get on the wrong side, because it's very costly and painful to clean it up.
Really, really, really great CS probably helps.
> Mr Waymouth had "never fully articulated" why he was unhappy with Summerfield Browne's work.
But that's clearly not true:
> Mr Waymouth alleged: "I paid upfront for a legal assessment of my case. [...] But what I got was just the information I sent them, reworded and sent back to me."
In any case, libel laws are absolutely ridiculous and are fundamentally incompatible with a free and functional market economy as they make it unsafe for customers to share their experiences and criticisms.
I have committed to never voluntarily do business with companies that take legal action in response to criticism, whether I believe it to be true or not. If you have sued someone for libel and I can choose a competitor who has not, I will choose that competitor even if their product or service is inferior.
Not that I'm taking a side, but on a practical note I'm sure after suing their former client the number of "business enquiries" will skyrocket.
I think they just poured gasoline over a fire.
Obviously you have to have written "In my opinion, X is a scam". If you missed off the first 3 words, you are gonna lose.
[1] https://www.carter-ruck.com/media-law-defamation-libel-and-p...
That said, UK libel laws are unconscionably stacked against the defendant. There is much to be said for the US' written constitution and bill of rights.
This defendant didn't even appear in court!
He sent this by email:
"I have already made it perfectly clear that this case should never be heard in court and I will not be giving it any credence or legitimacy by attending."
So, while UK libel law may be harsh (although less so than it used to be), it's hardly at fault in this case.
[1]https://uk.trustpilot.com/reviews/5cf8eb11b055990650f42368
[2]https://uk.trustpilot.com/reviews/6022794e679d9708b4d03f7e
It took Trustpilot some time to suspend reviews.
His defense should also prove that it is in fact a scam business otherwise it's not an opinion - this can be defamatory.
Anyway it's only a civil case, no precedent so far.
"I paid upfront for a legal assessment of my case. But what I got was just the information I sent them, reworded and sent back to me."
Is this a common practice? I recently reached out to an online attorney service (part of my insurance) about a minor issue and I got basically the same type of response.
See Sept 2019 full accounts: https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/c...
This is where the rubber hits the road. Britains Libel laws have for long been a shopping ground for international aggrieved. Do we keep our newspaper friendly libel laws? Do we become more like US or Germany?
Software eats the world really means 'You must make explicit the trade offs and choices that were once nicely implicit'
Its not just trolley problems.
(#) ok not everyone.
But confirmed needs to be something more deeply investigated to ensure the transaction was legitimate and the complaint or positive review was valid.
Don't know how to do it, but reviews are very much a problem and don't have a solution.
Genuinely good businesses get hit with lots of bad reviews in certain industries. Genuinely bad businesses get lots of good reviews if they are willing to play certain games.
That might be one of the main reasons why the case was decided in favor of the law firm. Otherwise, he could have defended himself against the libel charge (one possible defense is the truth)
Is the 'legal' comment we can leave now.
Hard to see how it's libel if it's an accurate reporting of his experience with the firm
That does kind of sound like a scam to me.
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2009/oct/20/trafigura-anat...
If I _feel_ like I have been scammed surely I can say so?
If it happens to you, just file for bankruptcy and get it sorted rapidly. You need a few hundred pounds for bankruptcy proceedings, so don't spend them on lawyers!
This makes it almost impossible for you to get a credit/lease a house/work with the banks in the future.
Do I feel like he over-stepped by openly calling the business scammers? Yes.
Do I feel like the firm/judge was stupid to ask 6000 pounds upfront, because someone just sued you and make a ruling for 25000 afterwards? Totally.
Nobody should be asked to pay that much amount before showing up to the court, just to be able to excersize their legal rights and to be able to presented , I feel like the judge made a huge mistake as well.
In the UK when you lose a lawsuit you are required to pay the other party's legal costs. It appears that the defendant had previously lost on some portion of the case. Here is the paragraph of the decision relating to that:
> The Defendant was ordered to pay the Claimant's costs up to and including the hearing of 6th July 2020 on the indemnity basis. This costs order has not been complied with. The Claimant seeks its costs of the disposal hearing. The schedule of costs for summary assessment seeks a further sum of £3,450. This sum is both reasonable and proportionate and I will make a costs order in the sum requested.
I'd argue angry man gives legal process he doesn't understand the proverbial middle finger is a more plausible explanation for why it ended up as a summary judgement than judge invents novel way to reduce his case backlog by demanding upfront fees for the defendant to attend.
I've been thinking a lot about how unforgiving human systems are. We're all governed by them, and yet the people who put them in place are long retired or dead and it takes an insane amount of work to make even the slightest of changes.
As long as there's no critical mass of unsatisfied people, it keeps chugging along. Some are caught in the cogs of the machine, maimed and killed, but society doesn't care as long as the majority is fine.
If/when that critical mass is reached, the system is either forcefully changed, often drastically, or crashes completely and a new one is built.
Rather fascinating.
"I have already made it perfectly clear that this case should never be heard in court and I will not be giving it any credence or legitimacy by attending."
EDIT: I had to pay an additional $34,000 in damages for this review.