There are plenty of very healthy meat-avoiding people in the world. Malnutrition is also a problem in the world. Malnutrition from people eating fake meat? So far, not a problem.
Yes, but they don't tend to eat much in the way of highly-processed meat simulants crafted from plants.
> Malnutrition is also an externality.
a poster addressed that, and now you have 4 more questions, none related to nutrition - and, hilariously, prefaced by the common but ridiculous "the question is" (implying there's one) rhetorical device.
this style of dialog is really tiring.
All I see about plant based diets say the same shit without answering the though questions. They always say, "it's possible to be a health vegan if you watch your nutrition". Well that says precisely nothing. It is a carefully crafted message to not upset militant vegans.
The impression I get from that message is that it is far easier to be healthy if you don't avoid meat. You don't have to watch your nutrition much. You just have to use common sense.
I’ve never felt this good before and the secret seems to be fiber in everything, even the protein.
Most of these options have cheap subtypes. The most expensive part of my cooking is the fancy stuff that isn’t strictly necessary, like fresh basil or pre-made pastry, and even those are not hugely expensive.
> The impression I get from that message is that it is far easier to be healthy if you don't avoid meat. You don't have to watch your nutrition much.
The obesity crisis in the developed world, combined with the low rate of no-meat diets, rather contradicts that.
> You just have to use common sense.
How do you define “common sense” such that this sentence differentiates between the effectiveness of meat and non-meat diets?
Only recently have I started spending more than $200 a month on groceries and that’s because I’ve started weightlifting. I can get by on much less.
Is any change in lifestyle trivial?
I’m able to go to my local grocery store for everything I need. I go to my local Asian market because I like the noodles and spices though, but that isn’t necessary at all.
Food deserts exist but that is a bigger problem with general accessibility to food, and is not a good argument to a plant-based diet, imo.
In my experience (omnivore -> vegetarian -> vegan), going vegetarian is not too difficult. Going something like pescatarian, or even just eliminating red meat -- that's downright easy. I am not a particularly great cook, but my grocery bill dropped noticeably when I went vegetarian because I was buying more vegetables for the first time in my life. Even when eating out I had to make very few adjustments. Most restaurants around me have great vegetarian menus. I feel like it's not a particularly difficult transition to make.
On the other hand, going vegan was harder. Part of this is how good you are at cooking. Part of it is that you have to research a bit more. I take supplements (D3, K2, B12) as a vegan. I never worried for a second about my nutritional input when I went vegetarian. And again, if you're going pescetarian and still eating a fair bit of cheese/eggs, I just really doubt nutrition is a concern for most people. But after going vegan, suddenly I had to actually think about some of these nutritional questions that I was able to ignore before because I just ate a lot of eggs and cheese.
You can make veganism a lot cheaper (and plenty of people do), but I'm lazy and bad at cooking, so I buy more specialty vegan products, which are expensive. I put up with it, it's fine, it's doable, but being vegan is annoying sometimes, and it requires more work.
Again, it's doable. It's fine, lots of people make it work, I make it work. You can be vegan and healthy. But in terms of effort/work to be healthy and to keep costs down, I think that veganism and vegetarianism are in separate categories.
But importantly, you don't need to go vegan to see improvements here. If you're talking about "meat-avoiding" in general, just getting rid of red meat from your diet will have a positive environmental impact, and will probably be both healthier and cheaper as long as you put at least a tiny bit of effort into not just eating only Impossible burgers and mac&cheese. You can already in many places get raw tofu significantly cheaper than red meat, and after that it's really just learning how to make stir fries and figuring out 'new' foods like mushrooms and beans.
Part of the benefits here are that in general, most people who aren't following a specific diet probably shouldn't eat as much meat as they do anyway. So if the end result is that you eat one serving of plant-based meat alongside some eggs/veggies/beans, instead of three servings of steak, that's very likely to be both healthier and cheaper.
Because there aren't that many. For people eating a vegetarian or vegan diet, keeping well-fed is a real concern and not everyone is pulling it off. For example, the following article is about infant nutrition but some of its comments apply to adults:
Vegetarian diets in childhood and adolescence : Position paper of the nutrition committee, German Society for Paediatric and Adolescent Medicine (DGKJ)
In Western countries, vegetarian diets are associated with lower intakes of energy, saturated fatty acids and animal protein and higher intakes of fibre and phytochemicals, compared to omnivorous diets. Whether the corresponding health benefits in vegetarians outweigh the risks of nutrient deficiencies has not been fully clarified. It should be noted that vegetarians often have a higher socioeconomic status, follow a more health-conscious lifestyle with higher physical activity, and refrain from smoking more often than non-vegetarians. The nutritional needs of growing children and adolescents can generally be met through a balanced, vegetable-based diet; however, due to their higher nutrient requirements per kilogramme of body weight, vegetarian children have a higher risk for developing nutrient deficiencies than adults. With a vegetarian diet, the mean intakes of some nutrients, such as the omega-3 fatty acid docosahexaenoic acid (DHA), are lower than in omnivores or those eating fish. For other nutrients, such as iron and zinc, the bioavailability from vegetable foodstuffs is reduced when the intake of phytates and fibre is high; thus, the prevalence of iron deficiency can be increased despite high vitamin C intake. In addition, vitamin B12 is only found in animal-source foods. Vitamin B12 should be supplemented in people of all age groups who follow a strict vegan diet without consuming animal products. A vegetarian diet in childhood and adolescence requires good information and supervision by a paediatrician, if necessary, in cooperation with an appropriately trained dietary specialist.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31722049/
See also some relevant articles:
Vegetarian diets during pregnancy: effects on the mother's health. A systematic review
Note well: Data are scarce, often inconsistent and not homogeneous for many of the topics we considered, mainly because only a few studies have been performed in developed countries, _whereas other studies have derived from developing countries, where vegetarianism can be a proxy indicator of malnutrition._ (my underlining)
Vitamin B12 Deficiency Is Prevalent Among Czech Vegans Who Do Not Use Vitamin B12 Supplements
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31835560/
etc.
I’m raising two perfectly healthy vegan kids. They are above average on most factors that matter and continue to amaze people around us when we tell them they are vegan.
There is so much misinformation out there, and extrapolating from cases where parents fuck up isn’t helpful. All kinds of people fuck up, vegans or not, be it due to ignorance, incompetence or negligence.
Edit: just to clarify in case I'm misunderstood, I'm talking about poor people because I don't worry that I won't be able to afford to eat as much meat as I like (which isn't that much anyway- I'm Greek, so Mediterrannean diet and all that. Like, ~60% of our cuisine is vegan or vegetarian only we call it "food").
If there is one field that's an absolute mess, its nutritional sciences. The only thing one can trust is their own experience with any particular diet, their overall well-being and regular health check-ups. What works for one person can be absolutely disastrous for another.
Similarly, modern western foods is full of supplements via “fortification” so to say that vegan diet is unnatural because of the need for supplements is a mute argument, so long as those supplements are part of everyone’s diet, and meat is just a carrier.
My point is still that the debate over plant based diets are too simplistic and based on anecdotes (on both sides). If we spent all the tax money we now spend on meat and dairy subsidies instead on unbiased research and education on general nutrition, I am convinced a lot of people would be surprised at the outcome.
Please note I didn't comment that "anyone can live vegan just fine".
For example, if you use plant sources for your fat supply of DHA, you'd have to ingest enough ALA to make most people sick. So supplements are necessary for health, especially in children (vegan algae based supplements do exist).
Another question is soy reliance. Last I checked, we can reasonably assume that a "normal" amount of soy in a diet is a non issue. However, results during pregnancy and childhood are apparently lacking, and studies in rats show potential problems [1].
"Further investigation is needed before a firm conclusion can be drawn. In the meantime, caution would suggest that perinatal phyto-oestrogen exposure, such as that found in infants feeding on soy-based formula, should be avoided." [2]
Just to be clear here: I am a vegetarian. However, I never went full vegan because I think it does require a very mindful and conscious handling of nutrition - and a lot more research [3]
By extension, I do not think it is appropriate as a recommendation for the general public at this stage.
[1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11524239/