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Comment by watwut | Hacker News Reader

You cant change narcissist full stop. And you cant change toxic boss from below. I agree with these.

But, I also dislike that a majority of advice on workplace and toxic people is basically "run away or enable it". Sometimes people can actually influence how much damage narcissist do and how far narcissist will grow in company.

There is little advice on how to communicate and protect yourself when toxic person is peer and you have some power over situation. Or how to report the situation in a way that will make impact, how to recognize who to report to, how to communicate in a way that will make situation transparent for third parties.

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Unless you really love the job/company and/or are really getting paid, the cost-benefit of "fighting the fight" is not favorable.

Even getting a peer level narcissist neutralized or managed out can easily take 1-2 years of consistent, coordinated daily effort.

What else can you do with your career or personal life with that type of effort?

My issue is systemic - if this is prevalent ideology, then abusers are bound to be the ones in power. Because everybody else is just running away. And they run away only toward other abusers in other companies - maybe somewhat milder but that is all.

And I think that it is not just about "fight". It is also about things like verifying information, not covering up for them unnecesary, not lie for them out of politeness, keeping written record, talking about problems etc.

It strikes me as an employers problem to fix their toxic workplace, not lower level employees.

You never know exactly who the abuser has in their corner within management. You never know the professional networks that exist if you work in a smaller niche. Once you've decided to go after someone toxic in management, you better not miss... and even if you don't, you may not want to make a habit of it.

But why not you? Why not try? Have the courage and morals and try to make a change. At the very least, stand up for your beliefs. Get fired for going to battle against the evil in the world. You might find allies along the way and win.

Certainly try. You can document things, escalate where appropriate, etc. Remember documentation is just your word against someone else's. Toxic managers are usually smart enough to never respond with toxicity in electronic form.

I am generally against the idea that a long, open campaign against a specific more senior individual is likely to succeed.

Often times the supervisor of toxic managers are very aware of their toxicity but accepted it either as a tradeoff or in some cases actually like it.

A lot of these guys will burn it all down on the way out too.

I worked in a team that was having 40% annual turnover for 5 years. In the final year the toxic guy 3 levels up C (A->B->C) forced my boss' boss B to fire my boss A, then fired the firer B a couple weeks later. Finally when this was all over C himself resigned a couple months later.

Given his seniority and the time it takes to find a job at his level, he knew he was going to leave when he forced the final culling. He let A&B stay around for 5+ years and then when he knew he wouldn't have to face the consequences.. he whacked them and resigned.

Apparently the replacement for C is worse.. because the CTO all the way at the top is.. into that.

steveBK123 8 hours ago [–]

> It strikes me as an employers problem to fix their toxic workplace, not lower level employees.

There are only few attempts to put workable advice for them too.

And what advice is there for them, it focuses on making our possible to report stuff, maken it possible for them to leave teams and otherwise use own agency.

Plus honestly, the super passive stance does me damage to you psychologically. Learning to control just a little feels better and causes less damage to you.

> . Once you've decided to go after someone toxic in management

As I told, successful harm reduction I have seen did not involved "going after him" as if you was bull. It involved setting boundaries, reporting stuff, keeping records etc.

Bonus points, you meet abuses everywhere, in any big enough company and social group.

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