Comment by maybelsyrup | Hacker News Reader

Comment by maybelsyrup | Hacker News Reader

One of my first jobs out of college was at small management consulting firm founded by an formerly very high level McKinsey guy. In a bigger firm, I wouldn't have had much contact with this person, but since we were tiny, he would often be out in the field with the junior people.

One week I found myself with him in some faraway city. We were a bit lost (this was before smartphones) and late for our next appointment. He was frustrated about it because we couldn't get a cab to save our lives. As the minutes ticked by, he'd get more and more irritated, muttering to himself about losing the fucking clients, etc. You can imagine one of these master-of-the-universe types when they get indignant; it's just like the movies.

At some point in all the running around, he notices how he's acting and tries to summon some perspective on it all, get out of his frustration. "You know," he said, "when the plague comes, society's not gonna need management consultants, nor is anyone gonna miss us. We'll get to the meeting when we get to the meeting; no one's gonna die because we're not there."

From a guy who I'd only known as this very hard-charging white collar business guru, a guy who fell out of a Tom Wolfe novel, this was unexpected and funny to young, naive, impressionable me. I got the impression that while he may not have completely rid himself of being annoyed at being late, he was also sincere. I think about this moment a few times a year, actually, something I wouldn't have predicted.

Looking back on it, I'm pretty sure that at the highest levels, these people know that they're not giving civilization all that much, and that this is never very far from their minds.

I have worked for a startup operated by a McKinsey alum; he was totally incompetent, throwing buzzwords around constantly without understanding what they meant. I have come to realize his entire strategy was to purchase the company, dress it up in new clothes (without understanding tailoring or fabric) and sell it to another rube.

> when the plague comes

It might have helped to have some mgmt consultants on vaccine distribution.

Not management consultants specifically, but I get the vague sense that it'd go not too different from this Deloitte situation: https://www.technologyreview.com/2021/01/30/1017086/cdc-44-m...

While amusing, this attempts to humanize them and somewhat whitewash their abominable actions. They are sitting at the top of the power matrix making lives miserable and dangerous for the ones with least power - paycheck to paycheck workers, those with addictions, inmates in Rikers, dissidents.

The fact that they are aware of their own lack of usefulness makes the whole enterprise even more cynical and shady.

To the extent that telling you all this story was an attempt to humanize these guys and "whitewash" their behavior (it wasn't), I have some bad news for you: they're human.

It does nothing against evil to pretend that the world is composed of a small number of monsters and the rest of us good ones.

I'm the first one to agree with you: consulting - hell, fundamental aspects of capitalism itself - are deeply cynical and morally suspect, and result in a lot of unnoticed pain and death and ruin. But in my view, ignoring the fact that criminals of all types go home and kiss their children at night, and mean it, is part of what keeps us locked in the status quo.

And by the way: instead of ascribing intentions to me that you, as the reader, can't know for sure from the text alone, why not just ask me what my intentions are?

The problem is a systemic one - people respond to structural incentives. We can't get a better world by insisting that people rely entirely on their moral compass to resist strong incentives - we need to change the incentives themselves. Every time we say "those people are just evil" instead of "how can we adjust our social structures so moral crime doesn't pay", we strip ourselves of the only real path forwards. "personal responsibility" is the worst possible doctrine for systemic change.

Firefly quote comes to mind: "They'll swing back to the belief that they can make people... better."

Are people downvoting you because they don't want to humanize someone they hate? Or am I missing something?

You'll have to ask them, I guess, but that's what it looks like. (Encouragingly though, way more ups than downs.)

I’m downvoting it because it paints all management consultants with a broad brush of ‘being evil’ which clearly isn’t accurate.

> While amusing, this attempts to humanize them and somewhat whitewash their abominable actions.

Ouch - I’m a supply chain consultant (only one shade away!) is the implication that I am less than human and totally spineless? I know management consultants and most of them do in fact have a spine and are just trying to help companies work better.

I was referring to downvotes on maybelsyrup's comment, not its ancestor from haltingproblem.

Ah apologies. That's totally my mistake!

This is certainly true. I know Godwin's law, but there are some good books and stories (not sure if translated to English), of the children of SS officers, concentration camp guards etc.. They started asking questions of their parents when they got older (or sometimes only after their father died) and found out that the loving and caring father had been a monster at some point.

It just shows that I, you and the average person is much closer to them than we think.

If you put enough money on the table I'm sure many more people would do the same thing as those currently in power. It's just that most people don't have the opportunity to sell out.

That's the scary truth I think.

I'm not sure it's all that different from you or I when we are uncaring towards a homeless person asking for money, or when we decide we value a latte more than a week's worth of meals for a starving child in Africa.

Everyone seems to imagine their actions are "normal" and "socially appropriate" but if only they were to break out of their lot in life and reach that next rung up, suddenly they'd be more generous, more compassionate, not driven by the same things, etc.

Advising a pharma company on how to turbocharge opioid sales and fan the flames of a raging painkiller epidemic resulting in 450,000 deaths is same as not giving money to a homeless person.

I am utterly flabbergasted. Words fail me which is rarely the case ;)

Hate the game, don't hate the player

> The fact that they are aware of their own lack of usefulness makes the whole enterprise even more cynical and shady.

Some would say this was the origin of charity and corporate social responsibility. It was born as a financial optimization to hedge against optics risk, to engage in moral licensing. And it does its job very well there -- not in spite of, but because it directly humanizes the company and its executives.

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