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Apple's mice have always been form over function (with some rationalized nonsense to try and pretend that it's actually about function). That was directly from Steve Jobs who supposedly mistook an unfinished mock as a mouse with no buttons.

I like the weight of the Max headphones and how they feel premium rather than plastic, I also use them at my desk and don't think they're uncomfortable. The butterfly keyboard, and touchbar are post-jobs failures though, but we're almost done with them.

I guess my point is that there were mistakes during the Jobs era too, people just forget them.

> "Design is how it works, not how it looks."

It's both.

> Apple's mice have always been form over function

I respectfully disagree:

https://photos5.appleinsider.com/gallery/31750-53575-magic-m...

I think you two are in agreement that the function is lacking.

This evidence supports the form over function argument: one can only conclude Apple sassily put the charge port on the bottom to make it impossible even to think of using the mouse while a cord is attached.

> I remember reading one of the story about HomePod team asking Jimmy Iovine's opinion on its audio quality. His reply was his usual " You need more Bass".

The fact that the author thinks the HomePods have great sound rather makes me doubt his audiophile qualifications. I consistently have to listen to music at a much lower volume than I want because even at a moderate volume, the bass hurts my ears. Listening to classical is even more annoying, as everything is fine until some poor instrument wanders in to the HomePod's "BOOST THAT BASS" range and suddenly the balance is all wrong.

I returned a homepod after really wanting to like it. I tried several locations, didn't matter, the bass is overpowering.

There's a HUGE bass boost. It's unlistenable to anyone familiar with what a relatively neutral frequency response should sound like.

I don't know what type of curve they are targeting with all of their auto-eq magic but if you're not going to make it user-adjustable, I don't know why you would choose a bass cannon.

HomePod's frequency response is objectively flat when placed in a free space.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/a...

https://www.rtings.com/speaker/reviews/apple/homepod

You might have reflections or room gain if it's in a smaller space. It'd probably help to put it on a speaker stand.

Guess I just need to move into a place without walls.

As parent mentioned, I've also tried the speakers in lots of different locations -- on the floor, on a desk, near a wall, not near a wall, in the kitchen, the living room, the study, and the hallway. And I've listened to the same music on my Bose headset (which aren't exactly known for low bass response), and then streamed it over my HomePod; the HomePod was basically unlistenable at any reasonable volume.

Maybe it really is just the HomePod managing to hit the bass frequency of every room, and all I need to do is add bass traps everywhere; or maybe all the music I want to listen to is just badly mixed to make up for expected poor bass response on speakers. But it's a bit hard to believe, honestly.

My experience was the same as yours, I tried every size room and location I could and they were all terrible.

The biggest sales pitch for the device is the smart eq that makes it sound good no matter where you put it. The only takeaway I have is that they delivered on this but the tuning target is insanely bass-boosted.

Also, looking closely, the graphs in audiosciencereview.com do show about a 5db increase in volume below 200 HZ, and another set of graphs [1] linked to from one of the comments shows nearly 10db increases for some frequencies. 10db is a pretty significant boost.

[1] https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/s...

HomePod does not boost bass. Take a look at these graphs showing the flatness across the spectrum and the level of deviation and distortion.

Whether you like flat frequency response on a speaker that can power the low end is up to you, of course.

https://www.fastcompany.com/40530628/apple-homepod-frequency... https://www.reddit.com/r/audiophile/comments/7wwtqy/apple_ho...

First of all, those two graphs don't show the same thing. Why not?

Secondly, they both, in different ways, show a distinct bass boost. In the first one, between 100 and 200 HZ, there's a boost of up to 2 dB over 0. The reference studio monitor for that range is below 0.

In the second one, from about 330Hz all the way to 7k is very close to 70 dB. Between 120 and 300 Hz, however, it's nearly 80 dB. 10dB is a huge difference in volume, and closely matches my experience of listening to music on HomePods.

That's four frequency response graphs so far (see a comment further down the thread) that have been presented as evidence that the HomePod has a "flat" response curve, which, upon closer inspection, actually indicate a distinct bass boost.

Good questions/pushback.

Audio analysts don't get identical results due to human error, different software, and different room configurations. The HomePod in particular was reportedly difficult to measure due to its shape and inability to plug directly in.

For the rest, I think you might be seeing the loudness compensation, which isn't a boost. Here are two measurements from the reddit thread showing how the HomePod responds at different volumes. https://i.imgur.com/dQQYdrI.png https://i.imgur.com/Iz1HAfu.png

Here's an overview of that approach. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour

Another angle might be to read from reviewers who want bass and aren't happy with the Homepod's balance. For example, this reviewer recommends the Sonos Five over the HomePod if you want bass, and provides this measurement comparison to partially demonstrate the difference. https://www.rtings.com/speaker/0-8/graph#15253/4553/1719

A third angle might be to find a speaker with bass you like, and read its measurements. If you have a particular model, happy to look at it together.

The rumors that Apple purchased Jimmy Iovine and Beats Music, and also got a mediocre headphones company in the bundle are most likely true. Apple needed to launch their music service, not their audio hardware business, so the acquisition worked and payed dividends on that front. They're probably squeezing Beats for all it's worth now because they can. But I'm sure from an engineering perspective Beats still brings nothing of value to the table now as it didn't then.

I don't think so. Beats headphones were the first thing since the iPod that was approaching Apple's cachet with young music fans. They were fashionable. That is Apple's turf.

> I don't think so. [...] They were fashionable.

I think you do think so. Describing them as "fashionable" is just endorsing my remark that from an engineering perspective Beats brings nothing of value. I was being very charitable when I said "mediocre headphones", the engineering behind Beats certainly had no value for Apple. And even today the most valuable part of the engineering behind a pair of Beats is Apple's W chip. I know I said engineering quite a few times but I want the focus of my comment to be clear.

But the headphones business that Beats had built up wasn’t somehow irrelevant. It was the main attraction, although not for any technological edge certainly.

> So Beats continue to make crap, they did improve somewhat since Apple's purchased them. And Apple, continues to be Apple.

They don't, they make good headphones now. Nobody knows this because they don't listen to the products, have never listened to them, and rely on jokes they read on the internet 10 years ago.

If you're not already familiar with Dieter Rams, you might like his thoughts on design; see:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dieter_Rams

I saw a great documentary about Rams, which was put online as free to watch - but for only a month or so. Not sure whether it was this one, but I think that it might be. There's a chance you might find it archived somewhere:

https://www.hustwit.com/rams/

Edit for spelling and to add that it's available on Amazon Prime (for me in the UK):

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/video/detail/amzn1.dv.gti.38b698...

The only affordable consumer audio products I have liked are from Marshall. They make a good lineup of bluetooth speakers for home use. I picked up one of those, and it sounds very good for its price. It has very decent bass, and generally good response all across the range. And just for fun, I put a processed guitar in aux input, not bad at all.

Another one which I like a lot are the range of mini amps from Laney. They aren't targeted for normal home use, but they can be used with bluetooth and aux-in. For their price and size, they sound very good. As a guitar amp...ehhh its OK for the price, but its portable.

Its really telling that both are veteran music gear companies.

Interesting, I own a pair of Bowers and Wilkins PX headphones and they sound great, no complaints aside from the year the firmware got stuck in some failure state and they wouldn't reboot/function until the battery died.

I have the same issue with my PX, every two months or so I have to use the paper clip to hard reboot them. Kind of annoying to need to do for a $400 pair of headphones, but they sound great, look good, and are very comfortable.

> But that is only with Audio, the AirPods Max Hardware Design is very much modern Apple and non-Bowers & Wilkins. The weight and comfort issues.

My B&W PX headphones suggest that they have plenty of weight and comfort issues of their own. ;) Sennheiser Momentums were much more comfy, but didn't sound as good :|

Apple audio engineering teams consist of many engineers from Bowers & Wilkins

Tom Holman is there as well.

For those who don’t know, Tom Holman is the TH in THX. He was also involved with the inception of Audyssey Labs and their room calibration technology.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomlinson_Holman