Ask HN: Remote workers in a non-tech city, what's your experience? | Hacker News Reader

Ask HN: Remote workers in a non-tech city, what's your experience?

226 pointsholsOndI181 comments

I'm a graduating as a software engineer in a city with a limited number of tech jobs. Due to divorce + kids living in this city, I won't likely be able to move to a major tech center. But, I've a job offer with one of the larger local companies with an option to work remote. I've thought about taking the remote option and staying with remote companies to get access to a bigger job market than I can locally.

Anyone here who's done something similar, what's your experience been? Pro's, Con's, unexpected good things, unexpected hurdles, that kind of stuff.

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I’ve worked remotely for 15 years, variously in a bustling major city with a startup scene and currently do so in a small seaside town a few minutes from the beach.

Quality of life depends where in life you are. City is better for meeting people, seaside town for raising children. Remote work is generally good for work-life balance, nobody cares if I stay at home with a sick child or finish early for a school play, but I probably travelled a lot more than I otherwise would have.

I thought (and was told) remote work would be a career limiter, but I have still ended up where I want to be (ML research).

What I miss most is being around many like-minded colleagues. What I enjoy most is being able to close the door to my office and work uninterrupted for as long as I choose.

I think I’m more productive because I can’t just “show up”; if I’m not making a difference I might as well have spent the day at the beach.

Are you me? I also work in ML and am raising a child in a small seaside town. Your comments are very similar to my experience. I was told going remote and leaving the city was career suicide, but it's been quite the opposite. The amount of assumed travel (pre-covid) was a bummer and often happened at inconvenient times at multiple companies, but I still wouldn't trade it. I never talk about tech outside of work, which is nice, although a little lonely at times. In some ways I think my worldview has broadened by not living in a tech hub anymore. Work-life balance is super healthy, I don't spend as much time in front of screens anymore either. The pros totally outweigh the cons in my opinion.

new grad here. any city and seaside town recommendations?

If you like having ocean, forest, mountain, lake, and city all within close range, and not paying state income or sales taxes, New Hampshire's coastal cities (Portsmouth, et al) are awesome.

Yes, it gets cold, but you don't have to go out in it if you don't want to. You can go from heated space to heated space pretty easily.

I've heard NH is quite barren, though.

The southeast, especially around interstates 93 and 95 are quite populated. It might not look it sometimes due to lots of trees between homes in the older developments, though.

I think you're supposed to cruise along the coast and take in each city one by one. Then circle back and stay at the one that seems most cozy.

Agreed. I did this in 2012 - Fort Lauderdale to Ocean City, MD. Landed in Myrtle Beach, SC for 7 years.

I work remotely and live in a seaside town in Florida. No state income tax, reasonable housing prices and cost of living, biking, boating fishing, golfing, 12 months a year. Many great options in Florida such as St Augustine, Sarasota, Jupiter, Pensacola.

I'm most concerned about crime and hurricanes in FL. Any thoughts?

Vaasa in Western Finland is quite nice.

Congrats on year 15! I'm on year 5 of working remotely.

Working in software I definitely think most companies are fine with remote individual contributors, and that it has been shown to work effectively.

If the company is setup for majority distributed communication (slack, wikis, ticket tracker, etc), then I even think tech team leads can be remote.

That seems to be the limit though unless the company is remote first or close to it. I haven't seen any remote employees in Sr. Management roles. Although Sr. Management at the company I'm working for have been working from home, I think when things are back to 'normal' the expectation is that they will be in the office again, although I'll be curious to see if they work from home one or two days a week.

YMMV

I've been a remote employee at my company for more than 7 years now, and I'm at a tech lead (principal) level and still effective there. Since I'm not interested in the management track, I'm not concerned about limitations there. It's true, though, that COVID has made upper management rethink the need to be constantly in the office.

I'm not seaside, but bayside, and my experience is similar to others in that regard in this thread. Great for family and all that, not so much if you don't like feeling a bit isolated. In the before times, I'd travel to one of the company motherships three or four times a year to get in-person time with the team. That works well to keep the team gelled.

I can send that. I've been fully remote for 4 years. Because the small village where we wanted to live has 0 tech jobs within reasonable commute distance.

I've gone from IC to team lead, to group lead. I think this is my limit at the moment. Not because I'm remote, but that's how much I can handle at the moment.

I don't get some of the hallway chats from the mothership, but the feedback routinely is that we're one of the strongest groups in the company. So I would take that as a sign that the remote aspect isn't a deal breaker.

Personally I wouldn't go back to the office routine unless I was out of options.

And yes, I do spend 80% of my time in various calls. This is not different from being in an office and working with a distributed team (also in offices in their regions).

> I think I’m more productive because I can’t just “show up”; if I’m not making a difference I might as well have spent the day at the beach.

Wonderfully put. This right here is the perfect expression for why I love remote work. You play your part and make a difference, then the rest of your time can be enjoyed elsewhere. No “the next 8 hours are dedicated to being at the office, maybe I’ll get some work done and chat with my co workers and go to meetings...”. Remote work seems to condense all the dead space in between, by allowing you to fill it with other non-work parts of life.

You've summed up my experience, both with location descriptions and pros and cons, to a T.

new grad here. any city and seaside town recommendations?

So it's great if you're married with kids and have the money to own an house?

But in many areas a house is totally within reach on a tech salary.

Yes. Here in the Midwest it's perfectly within reach of even a modest tech salary to own a home in a nice suburb. The coasts are just so detached from reality

No, there isn’t a detachment from reality. It’s simply that fewer people want to live in the Midwest. Considering the environmental and social problems that come with living in far flung (cheap) suburbs, it’s a wonder real estate isn’t more expensive on the coasts.

It's not a choice between live in Palo Alto or live in some far-flung Midwestern suburb. I think that sort of dichotomy gets set in place because it is pretty hard to get to cheap real estate close enough for a daily commute from most of Silicon Valley.

But throw out daily commuting (or even, really, just accept a reasonable driving commute) and many possibilities open up in many coastal cities, especially given that many jobs aren't in the cities anyway. Yes, if you want to live in the city, many of the coastal cities will be more expensive but, e.g. Chicago is not especially cheap either.

I mean, I don't think that Minneapolis, Detroit or Chicago are missing in basic quality of life facilities but enough people disagree to make them a lot less expensive than NYC or sf and, imo, that's their loss not mine

As a new engineer, onsite is a better career option because it will create more robust bonds in your professional network. Who you know matters. Being onsite will also probably generate more what-you-know as well simply by virtue of casual interaction.

There's nothing wrong with remote in theory, but it simply does not provide equivalent networking potential to physical interaction. You can always go remote later. Good luck.

This is true, but has to be weighed against the fact that you may land a job that is a better fit for your skill set, which I would argue trumps everything. Remote allows you to find work where you're a star, IFF you're willing to hunt for it. This is more likely to matter if you already have other career skills though (i.e. mature applicants transitioning from other work)

For an early career engineer I'd argue finding the highest quality coworkers is the highest priority. Even if it's in a stack that's not one's first choice. So much of this profession is rules of thumb and best practices that we learn from our colleagues.

Then for a mid-career engineer I think your statement becomes accurate.

I'm fully remote these days and have gotten more and more remote over the past 20 years. That said, it's hard for me to imagine being in that situation out of school even taking into account much different times and communication mechanisms.

I've been working remotely for 10 years and I agree that for junior developers, onsite is a much better way to learn and create a network.

Have to agree! I love my remote work lifestyle, especially since I have kids at home. But it works for me partly because I have a strong network that I built earlier in my career in face-to-face settings. There are lots of people I can call outside of my immediate group to learn about different areas, hear the actual gossip in some sub-industry, or get a recommendation for folks to hire. I've found it much harder to make new connections like that while remote, and I think this lends itself to professionally productive but not personally close relationships.

To a degree, I agree. Though I think it depends largely on the person.

Personally I've worked with lots of remote teams from the get go and co-workers I've never met in person. It's actually been incredibly fine for me to build strong relationships with them, to the point where I eventually meet them after many years and can pick up conversations with them as well as any of their local colleagues.

Though again I think that varies by person. I'm what I'd call a very social introvert in that I take part in lots of company/industry community but don't have a need to socialize like an extrovert might. I think that's helped me because I don't feel isolated when remote, but I get on very strongly with a wide range of co workers.

Anyway, to the point, I think you're right in that it's harder to build those bonds, but it is doable.

+1. Software development is as much a social activity as it is an individual pursuit. A big part of social activity is in person interaction some deliberate and some incidental like just watching someone explain a tricky design problem during lunch in a casual conversation.

I learnt so much during first three years of my career just by being around some of the most brilliant engineers. As an added bonus some of those became my life long friends or go-to mentors even though our careers have long since diverged.

I guess the true consequences (both good and bad) of full remote will begin to emerge in about 5 years from now.

>being around some of the most brilliant engineers

I think this is key. If you have great coworkers on-site work really helps your development. But if your team sucks, it can stifle it. Having been on both sides, I would place an emphasis on your team, especially early, and look for jobs that have a strong mentorship program

This is true, but if you're not in a good market I think the OP is right that having access to better companies and jobs outweighs that.

I work with a number of people who were hired, both remote and out of network, pre-COVID, onto a mostly co-located team. They have built trust and a strong network within the company, leading to promos and significantly increased comp, and through their excellent performance have built networks that will stay with them throughout their careers.

If you live in a tech hub, you’ll get a lot more out of attending and presenting at the technical meetups. I had more networking opportunities there than I did going to the office.

One of the few times I worked onsite was at a place where ... many of the people on the engineering team already knew me. The company had rapidly hired many Rubyists, and they all had known me from the Atlanta Ruby User Group.

Just moved from CA to ID. I'd say that the experience has been great, but with some caveats that don't really apply to you.

A lot of the celebration you'll see about remote work is going to come from those who couldn't afford space in places like SF & LA who are now thrilled that they can afford a house somewhere cheaper. I am personally included in this category, as houses in ID are much cheaper than CA. It's really hard to overstate how much of an impact space has on one's quality of life, but that might not be strictly relevant to you since you're effectively stuck in place either way.

Second, I'm pretty senior. There is a pretty big difference between starting your career out remote and settling into remote work once you're already established. It seems like starting out remote would be a bit tougher early on in your career, but I've only experienced being remote while managing.

On the whole, I personally love working remote, and have no intention to stop. This is actually pretty surprising to me, since I had a terrible experience with a prior remote job, as the job was both bad (for reasons unrelated to remote) and I was the only remote worker. Coming to enjoy remote work over the length of the pandemic was a surprise to me.

My only piece of advice: don't be the only remote person. Try to at least get onto a team that is 100% remote together, so that you won't end up being isolated.

> Coming to enjoy remote over pandemic

I enjoy remote but I miss the office. I think I'm part of the majority that would love 2 days in, 3 days out of the office (or some mix close to that).

I can definitely see a single remote worker of a bunch is a recipe for a bad experience as you are just out of the loop and in a company that probably hasn't or won't adopt the things needed for it to be successful.

Also someone who misses the office, although my ratio is more like 4 in, 1 out.

I think society is seeing an explosion currently in people who have never had the opportunity to work remotely, and who are now doing so for the first time. I feel like many of these people are maybe not thinking about how they will feel if their job is still remote 5 years from now.

Work is where a huge amount of social interaction occurs for adults, and we have now almost nullified that. To some people, that's like a gift from the heavens. But I can't help but feel that after a number of years of this, people will start to miss things they never thought they would. Running into people in the halls, group lunches with coworkers, sticking around after a meeting to catch up with such-and-such. These sort of spontaneous, unplanned interactions are what add variety to a life that can otherwise slide into monotony. Besides this, rates of self-reported loneliness among American adults have been skyrocketing the past decade or so, due to effects of the internet and social media. I don't see how removing the main remaining source of our in-person socialization is going to improve our collective psychologies.

I think like open office plans, we are going to see a lot of companies adopt this for cost reasons, and in five years we are going to see pushback as studies come out showing how collectively damaging forced remote work can be. It's fine if you are someone who chooses the lifestyle, but I think forcing it on people is going to end poorly.

But maybe that's just my preference speaking.

I'd be find with 4 out/1 in... or even 3 in/2 out - I'm pretty happy where I work and I enjoy like in the office... but I also enjoy it at home.

> Social interact has been nullified

That's why I'd prefer more than 1 day in the office. Its about a year out and I already miss my podcasts, the walk from parking to the office and meetings around the table.

I think managers want people in the office (generally) because that's easier to manage (traditionally). So once vaccines become The Norm, it'll be a move back towards that. I think that companies that have done remote can't go back 100% in office though (with exceptions) and won't stay 100% remote (again, with exceptions).

I don't see my company staying 100% remote but we have done real well with remote (and a switch to agile/scrum, coincidentally, at the same time).

You do you, but I’ve never understood this. Semi-remote arrangements seem to me like the worst of both worlds; you have to live close enough to the office for a reasonable commute 1-2x a week, and you’ve got to pay for enough space to work from home. Since you’re staying within commuting range, you probably won’t be able to get the really cheap housing.

I’d rather live in a small apartment and close to the office, or full remote and leverage different housing prices.

"You do you" that's part of it... I live on a family farm so I can't "move to the city" and I can't bring the jobs to me - so I have a long commute for a good wage. It's a tradeoff. ("cheap housing" isn't an issue - we own the land... but at an "extreme" commuting range)

So for me, partial remote is perfect... I get "social interactions" that remote can't replace... while losing a large chunk of commute (hours a day).

If I wasn't "tied to the land", I'd move to the job in a heartbeat.

One has to be comfortable with the social environment where one lives. ID, if you mean Idaho, is more idiosyncratic than other places and was an acquired taste not everybody developed. YMMV

Ok? That’s kind of obvious right? “Don’t work remote somewhere you hate”.

I’m not recommending they move to Idaho like I did.

I've done it a bunch of times. The big thing to be aware of is that managing remote people requires better management skills, so you need a boss who cares about doing it right. I had two experiences go sideways, in both cases my manager got stressed and busy, and because I was their only remote report, they did a crappy job. Prior to them getting too busy to do a good job, it was fine. It really is a lot better if they are a mostly remote shop.

pro tip: apply to places you want to work anyway, whether or not they say they will hire remote. I worked at a couple where they had not considered hiring a remote Canadian, and just needed me to tell them how easy it was after they saw I was a good fit. (one form, the W8-BEN. So easy.... but so many payroll departments don't know that!)

It's easy to hire Canadians even non-remote positions. The TN visa requires only a job offer letter and detailed job description for software developers.

There's no requirements for the TN visa holder reside in the same location as the business, to my knowledge. So a Canadian could reside in Washington and be employed in California.

I am a Cdn on a TN. There is very much an expectation that you will reside in the same location of the office. Its not as hard+fast rule (like the h1b1) but considering a random border guard could have a bad day and deny your TN based on whatever they feel like, I would strong caution against anyone living far away from their assigned office.

Also, if you're living in another state getting a US drivers license might be impossible (how do you prove residency if your work visa is for a different state?) . Some states don't require residency for a drivers license, (Oregon and CA don't) but you can get a RealID on your DL if you can prove residency. RealIDs are strongly suggested because you can use them to fly in the States, instead of your Cndpassport + work visa. Again, TSA agents have the legal ability to detain anyone on a work visa, so having a RealID lowers the chance of complications.

This is true, with TNs there is always have an element of chance. I've heard too many stories of people getting royally screwed crossing the border on a TN when it should have been no prob. If you are not working on US soil, the W-8BEN requires no one to "approve" you. It's just a form for them to justify not deducting tax.

so as a Canadian, remote work in US is easier to find if you remind them of w8-ben, even if they are only listing REMOTE inside USA?

Correct. It's a tax treaty form and there is no visa application required if you are only working from Canada. Many companies don't know about it and think that paying people out of the US will be a big headache, but they literally only have to fill out the one form and then not take off tax. It basically says "we both are confirming that the Canadian works in a place with a tax treaty with the US and will be paying income tax there so no tax needs to be with-held". I worked somewhere that knew this first, and then worked at 2 more places where I had to educate the payroll department about it! (They tried to send me forms that clearly said "I am a US citizen" and I was like "hellooo I can't sign this, that would be fraud".

As another remote worker from outside the United States who is currently making long-term plans for their career, thank you for mentioning the W8-BEN form.

I think this might be one of those pivotal moments that will change my trayectory in a significant way.

No prob! It really does open doors. Last time I applied for work in the US I wanted remote and part-time. Literally almost no companies on stack-overflow careers ticked the boxes to say this was ok. But I fired out 140 applications in a week with a cover letter applying anyway and had a job a week later. Rules bend if you're a great fit! :-)

Can you elaborate a bit more on the pitch as a a Canadian?

It was pretty simple, I just wrote a cover letter that said (in better wording) "I think I'm a really good fit for your company but I am in Canada. Are you aware that you can hire me without a visa if I don't work in the US? We just need to fill out the W8-BEN and I've done it before".

Many were still not interested, but it only takes 1!

Thank you, thats a great tip! I may copy your letter..

Pro: I make more than the mayor of our city and it's not a small city, nor is it a city in a doom loop of decline.

Con: That's after convincing the first remote salary position that I had the right stuff nearly ten years back, and then enduring the neverending stress of making sure I delivered on every front so I could be established as a remote engineer and not be capped by the limited opportunity in this fly-over state / not very technical city.

Pro: There are an insane amount of remote opportunities now.

Con: There's more competition for the positions due to the pandemic normalizing it. Also, you don't want to be the only remote person. When you interview for a position, interview _them_ as to how remote work actually works there. Entrenched remote companies with a culture that's battle hardened for that kind of work environment is a way better opportunity than a place that "does remote now post covid".

Pro: Your money goes farther than your peers in an awfully expensive place.

Con: Cost of living tiers are more of a thing so the gap isn't as big as you might think. What states the company already "does business in" limit their ability to pay you / onboard you easily.

Interview enough to know what you are worth, loyalty has it's benefits but don't get abused, once you have a solid work history of being effective remote engineer / leader -- you're golden.

Never quit learning and make sure you know what keeps you valuable as the years add up. :)

I would have never even thought to check until reading this, but apparently I make more than both the mayor of Dallas and the governor of Texas? I'm surprised they aren't paid more than they are. I suppose people who go into politics tend to already be rich and this is just another reason why.

For many, this is an investment into a name recognition and making important connections. After they retire, they are hired by law and lobbying firms, financial institutions, and companies in other industries that may benefit from their connections (famous "revolving door") as lobbyists and power brokers. This is when and where they make most of their money.

Sometimes I wonder if the mindset on HN seems to unhealthily skew towards the “hustle”.

Believe it or not there are people who get into public service for the “service” aspect and not just because it’s some calculated career move.

Always. HN is business and tech.

It’s more the “unhealthy” part that concerns me, not necessarily the hustle.

Hustle in business is good for society. Unhealthy hustle where you forsake everything for some Pyrrhic victory is not.

The kinda people that make it to the top in politics, are the hustlers.

I don’t know that I have enough information to disagree broadly, but the OP was specifically about mayors. I’m not sure if I’d consider that the “top” of politics (granting its always somewhat subjective)

Your job probably doesn't have the strange coincidence of land you own getting zoned commercial and increasing 10x in value by pure random chance.

I can't believe that the Mayor of SF gets paid a $350k salary. I did not realize that.

What's not believable about that? High or low?

For me it was higher than I expected. Even with SF's cost of living, I didn't realize it would be out of the low 200's. Just a broken expectation.

Some are already rich. Many get rich for unknown reasons while in office for decades. Hmmm. The pay is terrible for that level of responsibility and power, so rampant corruption is to be expected.

You make more than them on paper*

well...we have United States Congress making million while their salary doesn't support such...so...who know.

Lol no. They make $175k.

I think they were referring to their wealth, not income

their overall wealth...so many millionaire Congress with salary of 175k....fishy?

Pros of remote..

generally less bench warming, you do a good job, make people happy, no one is going to miss you if you take a two hour walk in the middle of the day to enjoy the world around you. Or any number of other activities you may choose to do.

Depending on your meetings you could pretty much work from anywhere. Generally though it can be frustrating to work without a place set aside to do so after awhile.

In your shoes, post covid, I might stay in fun places for a month at a time and come back to the kids or take them with if you can.

Cons... It's easy to get stuck in what feels like the twilight zone. More so than the office. It's really important, especially if you are alone, to make time for social activities and exercise. Laughs and strength help avoid what could feel like a very isolated life otherwise.

I've been working 100% remote for 20 years..TBH, if there's down sides, I really stopped noticing years ago. Get yourself setup with decent office equipment when able (second hand office furniture stores can be REAL cheap). A reasonably fast, very reliable internet connection is a must.

As for pluses - it gets easier to find remote jobs all the time, salaries/rates are real good. Can't beat the commute :-)

I've worked remotely for several years; I've lost count, but at least ten. Before that, I was about 75% remote for 5 years or so.

I live in semi-rural Scotland, so about as far away from a tech centre as it gets :)

My experience has been entirely positive, but I should add that I'm an introvert.

No commuting has obvious benefits - more sleep and/or family time, and cost savings from transport. For some, those cost savings can be pretty substantial.

Being able to have breakfast and lunch with the family (I have 2 young kids) is also great. It also means I can help out here and there, such as watching the kids for a short period while my other half gets stuff done.

I'm the kind of person that prefers a quiet space to work in - and in an open office (which is invariably the norm) there is always at least one really loud person who paces back and forth while speaking loudly in conf calls! I have a home office that's just perfect, with a door and everything! If you're going to work from home, I think a dedicated workspace should be a priority, as long as you have physical space of course.

I don't have any regrets, and doubt I'd ever return to an office environment, unless it was 1 day in 10 or something like that.

I live in Sarasota County, FL and work remotely for a company in San Francisco that everyone here knows about. Sarasota is a city of less than 60k inhabitants, but the surrounding area houses <250k people. I live in a somewhat suburban part of the county that trails off into farms less than a five minute drive from my house. The Gulf of Mexico is less than 15 minutes away with traffic. There are lots of great restaurants, and the arts scene pre-pandemic was booming.

20 minutes from me is an international airport, and New York City is this less than 3 hours away. Tampa is an hour to the north by car, and Miami is a 3 hour drive away. Orlando with its theme parks is 2 hours away, and I like to visit the Space Coast to watch rockets go up from Cape Canaveral.

Now that you know where I am and what’s here, let’s talk about who’s here. I’m old enough not to care that the median age of residents in my area is about 50 years. If you’re looking for a humming dating and club scene (modulo pandemic), you’ll likely find it somewhat lacking. There are plenty of young people, but not in the numbers you’d have seen if you had gone to New York City in 2019.

I find it refreshing that I don’t bump into engineers, VCs and project managers on every street corner. I know people in non-tech occupations, and their perspectives help me stay grounded in the real world. The mid-to-upper social class here is much more diverse than in NYC or SF. People’s occupations range from industry to sports to medicine. They hold diverse political opinions and vote accordingly. No one’s at anyone’s throat all the time because of “inconvenient” politics: we coexist peacefully with each other, left- and right-leaning alike. This is a kind of diversity you won’t see in big coastal echo chambers.

Proximity to nature is another aspect that I find quite important. Between the ocean and farms and state parks, there’s no shortage of green space and fresh air. I know some Amish farmers who supply me with fresh eggs, pork, veggies, and chickens. There’s a large locally owned dairy operation (Dakin) whose milk dominates the local market.

You might be surprised to find out that when people’s living quarters don’t occupy every inch of land in sight, it turns out that everyone can live comfortably and cleanly.

In closing, I’ll say that this lifestyle suits me a lot. I don’t miss the “tech city” I moved here from, and I enjoy working from home using the office setup of my dream, for which I have space without inconveniencing my family.

P.S.: Gators don’t bite if you don’t get up on their faces.

Howdy neighbor! I also work for an SF company everyone knows about and I moved to Sarasota a couple of years ago. It's the best financial decision I've ever made. Your analysis is spot on, and the Amish food is amazing.

Also, I'm a night owl and now I can work from like 12pm-9pm. Working on west coast time while living on the east coast is a major life improvement for me.

If anyone is considering moving to FL and buying property, Sarasota is the obvious choice. The amount of construction going on here is incredible. I wouldn't buy anywhere else in Florida.

I also looked into Austin TX and Vancouver WA as possible destinations, but the real estate values seemed more predicable in Sarasota. If you get in at the beginning of a construction project here, you're pretty much assured to make money. I bought my house as new construction at the start of a new development and it was worth more than I paid by the time construction was complete.

If someone is considering moving to FL but wants more of that "tech city" vibe, you can rent a really nice place up in St Pete where there's much more happening, but I wouldn't buy there because the whole thing is a flood zone.

I have recently started considering Florida (from Seattle). What is the advantage of Sarasota over larger metropolitan area like Tampa? We are in early 30ies, and would love to be able to walk to the ocean/gulf beach a few times a week, have a symmetric fiber Internet at home, and people to hang out with for music/games/geekery.

In general you want to pick where you live based on property values, flood zone, average hurricane damage, proximity to work, and convenience to other things (like the beach you mention). But almost universally you will be driving everywhere, so don't worry too much about it. Florida is one giant concrete strip mall on top of a swamp. So in general, figure out where you will hang out the most or with whom, and be near there. But also plan to drive a lot. Do you want there to be sidewalks connecting you to the beach / grocery store / etc? Again you'll have to search for those, as it's weird not to drive everywhere. And people on bicycles are seen more as target practice than pedestrians.

Large metros like Tampa are full of crime and traffic. If you want a "nice" walk to the beach, or you don't want your car broken into, you are much better off in a less dense area like Sarasota, Fort Myers, etc. But if you want to hit a few bars/clubs, get a little drunk, and have a short cab ride home, you'll want to be closer to a metro area. Otherwise you may have a 50 minute drive home after hitting a bar with some friends.

Florida is famous for attracting just a few kinds of people, so if you aren't in a part of the state full of your kind of people, you may bump up against culture clash. Research neighborhoods in each area to see which one you might fit in with. But also remember that the "Florida Man" isn't just a meme, it's one of your neighbors.

I grew up in Florida, and I really hate it. I don't understand why anyone but a retiree would move there. There's nothing to do other than sit in your sterile air conditioned house, go to the beach, go to a bar, or get high. And the people are terrible. I still go back for vacation though. It's like a bad ex I keep texting just to remember why I left. Oh, right... you're dead inside.

My parents are on the verge of retiring in Clearwater and they're trying to persuade their children to come with them. My sister and her family are already considering it. I'm pretty skeptical about the whole thing, being single, nearing 30, and having lived in a city (Chicago proper) for the entirety of my life. It seems like a good move, financially, though I know two people who say they hate Florida (one from Tampa who couldn't wait to leave) and I can only guess that it's as terrible as you say. Should I suck it up and move anyway? I'm already somewhat socially withdrawn and it would be good to be near my parents in their old age.

Why not live somewhere where you can enjoy your life, and fly down to visit your parents? Flights to Florida are dirt cheap from the northeast or Spirit hubs (like $30-$120 round trip, you can't even drive to NYC from DC for that).

Even if you're socially withdrawn (hell, I am) you can get so much more out of life even on your own in a place where there's nature, culture, diversity, nice people. Where you don't have to drive four hours to get to another large metro area. And that's just one area of the U.S.

It's a big world out there. Moving to Florida is like throwing the world away. You only get one life, don't waste it.

Are you saying Tampa has no descent concert venues? What about local bands?

Maybe I am misreading, but the only downsides in your comment are crime and hurricanes.

I sort of meant to include music as part of "going to a bar". You can find good live music in some parts, depending on the genre. Like bad college jam bands? Move to Gainesville. Like afro-funk, punk and indie? Move to Miami. Like bad cover bands? Probably all large cities in Florida got you covered. Alternately, few national/international bands actually tour down into Florida, or only hit a few towns.

As someone who moved from Florida to the Northeast, the biggest drawback to Florida is the outdoors. It's warm, humid, there's showers half the time, bugs everywhere, there are no seasons or elevation. So what you're left with is water sports [minus surfing].

It also lacks culture. Not so much music, but any other form of art that isn't centered around Wynwood only exists as much as the elderly will invest in it. Compare to Baltimore, a tiny northeast city with a crap economy, which has probably more arts diversity than all of Florida combined [outside of Miami]. Why? Everybody sits in their house or goes to the bar. Why be an artist when you can do heroin on the beach?

And the people really are garbage. I was one of those garbage people. I changed so much after moving away. I don't even know why. I just know when I left, everywhere I went, people seemed nicer.

If you just want to live alone and still be able to go to the beach, there are an infinite number of cities on either coast where you can do that without all those downsides. I dunno. Maybe there are reasons people move to Florida other than the weather. I personally cannot fathom it.

^^ That is all very much correct.

> I don't understand why anyone but a retiree would move there.

Taxes and cost of living.

Problem is you end up with a 'community' that only likes low taxes and doesn't give af about anyone else.

The problem with FL real estate is that flood zones and old construction are everywhere. You probably don't want to buy a house in a flood zone. Also, because hurricane codes were updated recently, you want to buy something recent-ish, definitely nothing older than 2002. The windows in my place are rated for a Category 5, and I'm at 50ft above sea level.

In most of Florida, Sarasota included, if you go with a traditional home, you'll want newer construction in a community. The HOA takes care of all the outside stuff like landscaping, so it's pretty much condo living except without shared walls. All the houses look similar.

The HOAs usually maintain some kind of "activity center" where you'll have a gym, pool, common area, tennis courts, etc. Again, it's pretty much like living in an SF condo, except instead of all that stuff being downstairs, it's down the street, and much larger.

If you prefer to live in an actual condo, there's plenty of those too with a walk-able downtown area, but I like not having shared walls. Also downtown is in a flood zone, so you might need to evacuate if we get a bad enough hurricane. I wouldn't be too concerned about flooding if I was buying several stories up though.

As for internet, frontier offers decent symmetric fiber (previously fios). I'm on gigabit with them and it's been fine. It's in most of the area.

Also, as a rule of thumb, you want to buy when a new community is just getting started or just finishing up. You'll get a better deal if you're one of the last houses before they shut down the sales office, or if you're one of the first to buy. Construction takes 8-12 months usually, but it's perfectly fine to have the house built while you're remote. I lived nearby with family while mine was being built, and me walking the construction site periodically wasn't particularly useful.

Hope that helps! Happy to answer any other questions you might have.

How much, and how large, are typical new houses?

Are waterfront houses not usually built to withstand flooding?

> You might be surprised to find out that when people’s living quarters don’t occupy every inch of land in sight, it turns out that everyone can live comfortably and cleanly.

I'm not sure how to take that. Given the rest of your post I took that as people are at each other throats because they live too close but there are plenty of big densely packed cities were people get along with each other and "live comfortably and cleanly". That SF or NYC is not one of those has nothing to do with density.

Awesome perspective!

Must say the gator situation was hilarious when we first visited a customer in Tampa - half-way through discussions one surfaced in the water right outside the conference room window. Everyone not from FL immediately reacted, but the local team didn’t even flinch and continued on. Made for some great beer talk afterwards!

Much has been written about it, and can be found here and elsewhere.

I've been 100% remote for 20 years. Its ok. Miss some of the collaboration sometimes. Have a local groups of guys I share contracts with so we can pool skills. So that helps.

Smaller midwestern city is a plus - lots of amenities while still very navigable and understandable. Went to my 2nd-favorite Indian place for lunch today (2st-favorite is in next city over, 20 miles). Post-pandemic I'll be able to enjoy one of half a dozen production companies on their various stages. Fresh local food everywhere. Amazon brings the rest of the world of shopping to my doorstep.

In the end I can only live the one life, one person, right where I am. What does it matter how many other lives are played out around me - 50K or 2M? At some point there's only so much I can sample and enjoy.

The only thing I've missed (being remote away from London in the UK) is the meet ups. I used to get a lot of value in attending good ones: from the talks, the people I met and the opportunities that came my way off the back of them. When I first left London I didn't realise how much I'd miss them, and still miss them 5 years on.

For the last few years finding other remote gigs hasn't been a priority for me, but good ones weren't the norm. Now there is more opportunity than ever, and I can happily say leaving London has meant a totally different (improved by almost every metric!) quality of life for me and my family.

I'm still looking to find good remote meet ups that give me what I found before, but if that is all I'm missing out on, then I'm pretty happy with tie move. I just hope great remote opportunities continue and remote working practices continue to improve.

On connections with colleagues, you need to work a little harder to make these stick, but if you put the effort in it can happen. There are work friends I still see socially remotely.

Being in a tech city sucks. I moved to San Francisco for a better job with better pay, and was overwhelmed with people with shitty politics and group think. Working in a community with people who do tangible things is much better.

Also, housing prices. It's really hard to overstate how rough it can be on some people to not have their own space.

I am a native San Franciscan, and an engineer looking forward to the tech exodus.

Most startup prospectors really hate our culture. Once the financial incentive goes away, people are free to seek their fortunes and happiness elsewhere without impacting ours.

Maybe. San Francisco has been where dreamers go to make their fortune since the mid 1800s. It’s clear that the pandemic will reduce tech employment there, but it’s far from clear that it’ll end the boom mentality that created Silicon Valley in the first place.

Agreed, the prospector mentality will never leave, but it is changing. You couldn’t mine gold from Utah, but you can certainly sell silicon snake oil from there.

The pandemic seems to be is helping legitmize / mainstream “remote-first”. It is already facilitating the exodus of those who view the bay as an inconvenience imposed upon them.

Read any article comments about the bay area here on HN and primarily there are two types of comments: those who hate it here but live elsewhere, and those who hate it here and desperately want to leave.

I know many people like that( and every time I see their location updates on LinkedIn showing they have left, I take a shot of Fernet. I’ve been drinking a lot lately!

I'm a remote worker who lives in a small remote village in India. It's a bliss to experience the best of both worlds at the same time and staying connected to my cultural roots while doing the same work I used to do when I was in the US. I have always been a bit of a loner so not so much of a change in social life. When I see my fellow farmers tending to their fields and the kind of work satisfaction they have, I feel I lack that sort of dedication to my job, it might be the case of large disconnect between what I work on (blockchain tech) and where I live (farming village)

Sounds lovely :) Whereabouts in India are you?

UP :)

I've worked remotely for almost four years now. I'm in a suburb of a large US city on the East coast, not really a tech city.

It's... fine? I guess?

I guess I never really thought about doing this job in a "non-tech" city, versus doing it in a "tech" city.

I'm not entirely sure what the difference would be in a "tech" city. If you're into the startup scene, or simply really enjoy local hacker stuff like local user groups, maker spaces, etc then doing a remote tech job in a non-descript suburb would surely suuuuuuuuuck. Those aren't big factors for me though. I have friends and family here, and I satisfy my urge to connect with the larger "tech community" online and thru my team at work.

As far as working from home in general, I love it. It's not for everybody. For most people I believe it's 1000% healthier than commuting if you have a full and healthy life outside of work and your job provides at least a modicum of community via daily video calls, etc. It's just a simple math equation: there are a fixed number of hours in a week. Since I switched to remote work, I spend less hours commuting and thus I have more time for sleep, other pursuits, exercise, friends, etc.

Not everybody feels the same about remote work and that's fine. You will quickly discover if it's for you!

Unexpected hurdles?

1. Feeling like you're "always at work". Enforce some kind of physical space for work time. If you don't have a separate office, it can even just be a particular chair at the dining room table that is reserved for "work time." 2. General lack of respect from friends and family assuming that "work from home" means. They think you aren't working, or you can just completely make your own schedule, leave work on a Tuesday afternoon to drive Aunt Sally to the dentist, etc. For folks who've never worked from home it can be hard for them to wrap their heads around it.

I've been working remote for 7 years. Mostly in small towns in Texas, but a couple in a big city. It was fun and good for awhile. It got lonely and hard after year 5. I didn't do a good job of getting enough rest and time away from work, and got burned out. It took 3 months of part time to get back to normal.

Your team has a big impact on your well-being. If they encourage healthy work/life balance and you have a healthy routine, you'll be better off than if they encourage longer hours and more, more, more.

Very thankful with where I am now, though. I've spent this afternoon working on a patio at a little cafe in the downtown area of a small town. That's pretty amazing.

> I've spent this afternoon working on a patio at a little cafe in the downtown area of a small town

This sounds like hell to me. My joy is being on a small team in a room with 6-10 other people where we collaborate with each other, calling out, asking for advice on solutions, designing together, getting lunch together, and being in each other presence.

Sitting an a cafe staring at a screen and ignoring all the strangers around me sounds like a dystopia from being around friends and working together.

I've worked from cafes for 3 of the last 4 years (because the last year was covid so no cafes). It's better than being isolated at home but it was 10% of what I get from being physically with teammates.

If you enjoy the solitude good for you.

For me the difference between remote work and office work is like the difference between a real social meetup and a zoom meetup. The zoom meetup doesn't come close the real thing. Similarly, remote working doesn't compare to working physically together. All the things missing from the zoom meetup vs the a physical meetup are also missing from remote work.

I do miss working with people. I took a job in LA in February 2020 because I wanted to work in an office with a team. That office shut down the week I got there. I moved back to Texas 3 months later. Now I work for a company mostly based in NYC. Hoping to get to visit soon. But. Covid.

> being on a small team in a room with 6-10 other people

That sounds like hell to me. I prefer a quiet office where I can concentrate without constantly being interrupted. So it clearly depends on your personality whether it works for you or not.

My company is headquartered in Cupertino, CA and I live and work in Dallas, TX. The obvious pros are I don't need to commute or really drive at all, I can work from bed (probably doesn't matter to most, but I've got 10 screws in my spine from past surgeries and it matters to me), and I can live in a 3,000 square foot 4-story townhouse within spitting distance of downtown for less than my sisters in California pay for a third of the space in the middle of nowhere.

I don't really see any cons or hurdles, honestly. Timezone coordination is clearly harder for the people on the coasts, but I'm right in the middle anyway. I have a security clearance and some of my software is deployed into a classified runtime environment, so not having access to a SCIF without traveling does make that challenging, but I imagine that specific challenge doesn't generalize much and doesn't apply to you.

If your health requires you to work from bed, why do you live in a 4-storey house?

s/he probably isn't bedridden, just needs that position in order to be in front of a screen 8+ hours per day.

I've got neck problems and a similar situation. I can sit at a normal desk bolt-upright for a few hours, but not a whole day. For long coding stretches I don't lie down but rather use a weird custom chair I built myself that has my back at about a 45-degree angle to the ground. My leg-torso angle is still 90 degrees, but (important part) the angle between my torso and jaw is much much less than 90 degrees. It requires a somewhat elaborate monitor arrangement (I like huge 4k screens) based on a repurposed adjustable-height standing desk.

I can't imagine this setup working in one of those now-ubiquitous "open office plan" places.

IDK GP's circumstances, but my townhouse had a private elevator (also in Dallas)

I have been doing remote work for years. I lived in Atlanta and Seattle. Both with enough a tech hub that meeting other techs were easy.

When I lived in Sedona, AZ, there were practically no meetups, or tech to speak of. Of course, I moved there because I liked the hiking and the New Age hippie folks, and enjoyed their company. However, the natural networking I got just hanging out in Atlanta or Seattle disappeared.

I moved fo Phoenix because of family issues. I missed northern AZ, and not only that, the tech scene in Phoenix sucks. For example, no one in town really wants to hire senior Rubyists, or pay them at that rate. As I told recruiters in the Phoenix market, I think all the really good people got remote jobs with companies outside of Phoenix.

I think the rest of the mainstream tech community is catching up. At some point, people will start to realize that you can move to where your lifestyle fits.

For example, if you love the mountains, or like the idea of hobby farms, you can move out into the sticks. Once Starlink becomes generally available, it will be even easier to do so.

Other people live in mobile tiny houses.

People raising kids will find that moving back to your hometown with a lot of extended family to act as a safety net will help a lot. Pr to select the school district for your kids.

For some people, it may even mean becoming more involved in the local community. You act as a kind of economic importer, and your support can make a huge difference.

I know a lot of people got introduced to remote working during a lockdown. If you ever get a chance to continue remote work after lockdowns are lifted, you’ll find that remote-first does not have to mean work from home. It can mean working from a coffeeshop, or patronizing local establishments. It can mean joining a coworking facility. It can mean enjoying your work outside on the patio when the weather is nice (or, if you are like me, coding in the porch while it is raining or snowing is a great experience).

I've been working remotely on/off for the past decade and vastly prefer it to commuting to an office. It has afforded me the opportunity to live in a corner of the world that I truly love: a quiet and remote 20+ acres property in rural Colorado.

In my experience, the key is to work for a company that is remote-first (or even remote-only), because it will be structured accordingly. I've never worked on a team that's partially remote - I can imagine that could cause friction and a certain degree of alienation.

I would also add that there is definitely an advantage to being on-premises and in a tech hub for an engineer that is at the beginning of their career: easier access to mentoring and learning opportunities, creating a professional network, meeting friends, etc.. It's a tradeoff.

Honestly? It's great. As much as living in a tech center has its advantages, I like that once I leave my house the concept of a programmer is foreign to people. I don't have to think about it at all if I don't want to, and it's liberating.

I'm also making a significant amount of money due to exchange rates and the fact that my cost of living is so incredibly cheap compared to tech hubs.

I've been in the consulting / field service part of a major tech company for 10 years. I've been remote for 6 of them and remote with minimal travel for 4. I started remote because we wanted to move closer to family (and ended up closer to my wife’s family.) That part has been brilliant- I think it’s been very good for my kids to grow up close to at least one set of grandparents and I like my in laws*

Mostly is been really good - my team is fully remote, we are supportive of each other, and we take time to be human (chit-chat, complain, etc), which can be a problem remotely.

One thing I’ve learned is that you have to be more intentional in your communication. Yes, everyone is only an IM away, but not being able to see someone in there office brings communication changes. I’ve found it helpful to try to pull more communication out of people (“let’s screen share, it’ll be easier”).

On the work-life balance side is also been really good for the most part. I have a physically separate workspace (a converted garden shed) and little ones that make sure I’m done at 5p and stay done. I do miss in person coworker chats and hangouts at times, but I’ve been able to substitute other relationships over time.

One surprising “drawback” is the increased flexibility I have working remotely means I tend to get stuck with a lot more home chores than my wife. We do share some responsibility, especially during covid, but it’s both reasonable and expected that I get to deal with the majority of the childcare or dealing with workmen, etc.

Another problem, for me at least, is that I do feel trapped at times. My current job pays well above the market rate in my area and I have not heard of any remote alternatives with similar compensation for my skillset. This wouldn’t be as much of a problem in a tech hub.

Overall though, I wouldn’t want to go back to commuting. WFH means at least an extra hour a day or more, and I feel like it makes it much easier to engage with other things I love like my family and the outdoors.

* in the off chance my parents read this- I like you MORE, but you know why I ended up where I did. Retire and move here :)

I've been working remotely for 16 years now, with a brief (less than a year) foray back into in-office work.

Before shifting to remote work, I spent about seven years working three days in-office, 2 days home.

My experience of remote work is entirely positive, except when I'm working with a client or employer that doesn't really support it. If it's not supported, or only halfheartedly supported, then all sorts of issues and obstacles will magically appear. If it's fully supported by a competent, professional team, though, solutions abound.

I went from a full-time in-office career in Silicon Valley for ten years, to working from home part time for about 7 years, to fifteen years of full-time remote work. It works very well for me. I'm not sure it would have worked as well without the in-office work at the start. Discipline and the ability to manage myself effectively are important keys to making it work, and I definitely did not have those skills at the start of my career. I was also much clumsier in communicating with colleagues, and that kind of clumsiness can be fatal to a remote working relationship. So I don't know it for a fact, but I suspect that the advice others are giving--that it's good to start out in an office at first in order to learn the ropes--might be solid advice.

I live in Northwest Arkansas and usually work on the coasts. My metro area is among the 10 least expensive places to live in the United States. My current clients are in Palo Alto and Cambridge, Mass. Financially, our arrangements are good deals for both me and them.

From my perspective, remote work is an unqualified success. It costs a premium and some persuasive discussion to get me to come in to an office.

I work remote now and like it, but I'm not really sure how well that would have played out for me right out of school. Almost all of my social network, from friends to future wife, flowed through those in-person jobs. I was (am) very introverted, but the "Hey, we're heading out to grab lunch, wanna come?" experiences at that time allowed me to meet people.

I live in Algiers, Algeria and we have a limited presence in Paris, France. Algiers is a non-tech city. I don't see a difference. We have no clients in Algeria to begin with, so it's irrelevant.

Congratulations for your graduation.

Working in an office and being incidentally exposed to how others work, debug, talk about code, collaborate with other engineers, etc. was incredibly important to my growth as a software engineer at my first job. There are a lot of things you see and learn that you would never think to ask a question about unless you overheard someone else say it or like see someone do a nifty command line trick while sitting next to them.

After that first job, I would say there hasn't been much advantage to non-remote.

I have worked remotely in a relatively small town with 70k people. I have lived in areas like Denver and Washington D.C. and I will never go back to the grind and misery of city life.

Pros: save money, no traffic, nicer homes and schools, never wait in lines really

Cons: no entertainment you would find in a bigger city, making friends can be more difficult, can be several hours away from a large airport

I want to ask a question to the group, too. How do the companies headquartered in SF and NYC and places like that decide your salary and if you are in a cheaper locale? Do they give you a lower salary, are taxes weird, is there an awkward conversation with HR? Has anyone moved from an expensive place to a cheaper place and dealt with awkward company reactions (HR)?

Some companies have released salary percentiles (relative to HQ) for the adjustment to remote. For example, a company in the Bay Area published this for total comp. Most companies seem to be following similarly:

Bay Area: 93%

NY: 93%

Seattle: 92%

Los Angeles: 91%

Boston: 91%

San Diego: 88%

Denver: 86%

Chicago: 85%

Portland: 83%

Philadelphia: 83%

Atlanta: 83%

Minneapolis: 83%

Austin: 82%

Florida: 81%

Salt Lake City: 81%

Phoenix: 81%

Washington: 80%

Detroit: 80%

Houston: 80%

RTP: 80%

Ohio: 80%

Vancouver: 73%

No matter where you are, it won't go below 70%

"Cost-of-living adjustment" is the biggest wage fixing scheme since the 2005 Apple-Google wage fixing agreement. You are doing the same work, producing the same results, while the company is saving a ton of money on office rent, parking, security, electricity, etc. At the same time they declare you have to take a pay cut!

Do not agree to it. The company has no negotiating position here - it will be very disruptive and costly to replace employees right now. HR can only make an example of a handful of people before terminations prove so disruptive that the wheels start coming off and the other managers go after them.

If you have already agreed to a cost-of-living adjustment, renegotiate. If they fire you because of the cost-of-living adjustment, join a class-action lawsuit. If for whatever reason you think you cannot negotiate in your own best interest (not true! as a tech worker, you have most of the negotiating advantage), unionize.

It's a real morale breaker to be told that your labor is worth less because of where you live when everyone is remote anyways.

You're worth what you ask for, not what someone think it's worth. You'll get what you ask for more often than not.

People have worked remote before covid, without any salary adjustments.

HR has to set up these policies in place to make sure their salaries line up with local averages. However, it's up to the management to decide who will fill the positions and at what salary. They will make adjustments to make sure their top performers are compensated properly.

Worst case scenario, move to another company.

> It's a real morale breaker to be told that your labor is worth less because of where you live when everyone is remote anyways.

Well don't feel bad because that's not how it is. It's not about what your labor is worth. It's about supply+demand.

It's morale breaking to be reminded you're just a line item on a spreadsheet first and foremost. Especially in a tech organization of a non tech company.

It sucks but at least we have high relative salaries.

Imagine how people in other countries feel.

Certainly not great, I imagine.

That being said, there is a substantive difference between being hired at a salary and suddenly having your salary cut. The former is why companies try to hide what everyone is paid; to avoid the lower paid workers from feeling screwed and advocating for more money. But having corporate come in and say “your labor is now worth 70% what it was before” creates unavoidable feelings of being valued less by the company, because that’s exactly what’s happening.

Aren't most of those high cost of living cities? Not really rural remote working cities.

Yeah fair, guess the interesting bit is that it won't go below 70% anywhere across the US

Some of the larger SV companies publicly said they would be adjusting salaries for employees that chose to move to lower cost of living locations. Typically when this is done, it uses the numbers provided by the government to provide the adjustment numbers.

As someone working remotely for a company out of the Midwest where things are cheaper, they specifically mentioned that they would not be adjusting salaries up or down if their employees choose to move.

I don't live in a city. Largely because of that, commute times have often been an issue in the past. That's one of the reasons I decided, years ago, to drop the commute and just work from home.

Now, not only do I have no commute, I have a job that pays significantly more than what I could make in my local area.

There are no cons. This is the way life should be.

I have lived in Riverside, California my whole life (about an hour east of Los Angeles), but I've been working remotely for companies in SF for the past 5 years. There are a ton of advantages over living in SF:

- Houses are probably 1/3 the cost of houses in SF (or the bay area in general).

- I can get to SF with a 50 minute flight and I live 15 minutes from an airport. This was a huge plus when I convinced my last job to hire me as the first remote engineer.

- I am in the same timezone as SF.

- The cost of living adjustments to my salary have been either zero or very small (like 5% less salary than an engineer in SF). Totally worth it in my opinion.

We have talked about moving to a cheaper CoL state entirely, but my whole family is in this city and it is definitely cheap enough. My wife is also a teacher, and teacher salaries in CA are much higher than in lower CoL states.

Saskatoon: - the internet is decent. It is better in a hub city, but as long as one can live with occasional disconnects, it's fine.

- Deliveries : add 3 days, weeks or months (depending) on time to delivery. "overnight" does not exist. International diplomacy makes a difference here - so ship from countries that are at least "not aggressively unfriendly". (fwiw : faster to get things here from China than from USA. Odd, but that's both politics and situational issues). EU is about as far away (time wise) as California, and UK is closer than NY.

- Community - have one. Do not be alone, especially if you have a family. Getting out of tech-centric circles tends to be good anyway.

We moved near a bunch of family. It wasn't an easy move, but the quality of life improved quite a bit for us.

By the looks of it, Saskatoon is an hour further from the UK than New York is, no?

I interpreted that to mean in terms of getting things delivered, but reading was never my strong suit, let alone understanding what I read.

You are right, somehow my English parser broke on that paragraph and I took it to mean timezones. Maybe I need to take a break…

The assumption of it being about delivery time is correct, and having very little to do with actual physical distance.

Each delivery method has its own time as well. And stock in anything I need for work is not available at any store in the city I'm in, typically, so needing something means there's always a delay.

The biggest issue is just infrastructure and security. We're still building up our system. Everything gets so much more complicated when your team is no longer all in the same building. We built up a really nice intranet with file servers, gigabit ethernet to all of our computers, encrypted backups. But now most of that stuff is useless because most of our team are not on the network! So now I have to write up a budget proposal to get offshore VPS service, gigabit fiber to the building, a software stack for secure encrypted messaging and file sharing over HTTP, trustworthy backup services. It's very time consuming research! And we haven't even deployed anything yet! And It's even worse when part of the team is in a completely different country, because then we can't reliably send data through the mail; we have to mule it.

If our threat model was milder we could just use centralized 3rd party web services for our encrypted file sharing and messaging. It's very difficult to secure an international remote team. I think it might actually be impossible to have full security. Especially when the remote teams have no system admin or security skills to help share the administrative workload.

People bringing their own computers also creates a huge security hole, so we're also planning to start loaning out laptops to people so we control all the software and policies on the machine.

IT support for a remote team is very time consuming. Very expensive. That's what I think.

>IT support for a remote team is very time consuming. Very expensive.

In normal times a lot of the workforce of many large companies is traveling a lot anyway. For 2019 and a few years earlier, I was traveling about a third of the time and I also mostly use my own devices. So supporting employees not in the office using gear that isn't supplied and directly secured by the company isn't some new concept.

No it's not new, it's just not worth it. Especially when the remote teams have no system admin or security skills. Better to just give them a preconfigured box with all the necessary software and policies. A buddy used to work at Booz Allen Hamilton and they gave him a company laptop with very limited permissions.

That is one approach. Give them a locked down, with no root access, Windows or Linux box and a company Blackberry. It's not unreasonable for scenarios where the highest security is needed.

That said, my experience is that most technical people really dislike that sort of thing. Of course, it's your choice if that's your priority.

They could just VDI in to existing infra + VPN.

We don't have the bandwidth at the moment. I would if we did.

I've worked remotely in various forms, for about 15 years. My remote work experience ranges from State Employee (Management) to independent consultant with large clients, to working currently for a small company who contracts me out. I am currently contracted to a Fortune 500 company as a software engineer and business analyst and have been here for the past 7 years.

I guess not everyone is cut out for remote work, just like everyone is not cut out for open office spaces. I personally love working from home (or wherever) because it works well with my personality. I'm not into interrupting peoples workflows to gab on the regular. I generally get into a zone and once I'm there, interruptions pull me out of that zone and it takes me 30 minutes to an hour to get back into that zone again. Sometimes that becomes even more difficult if the interruptions happen in the afternoons.

I've also found that not a lot of big companies understand how to support employees that work remotely. Everything rises to the level of a meeting (interruption) instead of just posting to a Slack/Teams channel. This pandemic has been interesting in some ways because the people that DO go into the office and actually like that setup, have been forced to work from home. What makes this interesting is that they STILL don't use remote tools for collaborating and my meetings (interruptions) have actually increased because of it. I would ask your potential new employer, what they do to help support remote employees and see what their answers, if any, are.

You mentioned you have kids and are divorced. I cannot tell you how awesome it is to be able to take 5-10 minutes to help your kids through something or spend time with them during a workday. These kinds of little things add remarkable value to your quality of life.

Another thing that makes remote work even more awesome, is if they're flexible hours. In other words, you aren't tied to your home office during regular business hours. This minimizes the interruptions (IMs via Skype or Teams for instance) and allows you to work a schedule that fits your workflow. For instance, I start really early because that's when I do my best work and I taper off in the afternoons and sometimes pick back up in the evenings.

I am happy to answer any other questions that you might have.

(From throwaway) I have been doing that for the past 5+ years.

I used to live in Bay Area. Gained lot of knowledge (tech, product, business etc) through trial and error with multiple attempts over the years in my career. Finally am at a point when I can bootstrap almost any idea as a solo founder and fill gaps with contractors as needs arise.

One of my tech companies (solely owned by me) makes 10+ millions (USD) in profit every year. This help me lead a good lifestyle in one of the most livable but expensive cities in the world (and it is not a tech center). I work from home and spend a lot of time with family. I love how much time I can spend with my wife and kids. This is the biggest benefit.

I have some ideas which have a strong chance to be a unicorn. But I have de-prioritized them, mainly because Covid has been really challenging and I want to focus on supporting myself and the family during this difficult year.

If I was still in Bay Area, there is a good chance that peer pressure might have pushed me to prioritize work more. One one hand I would have had a higher chance of making a lot more money, on the other hand sometime you think what's the point of it if I can't spend time with my family. So it might be a Pro for some and Con for others.

One thing which did help is that I made this move after I already had reasonable success!

RGV (Rio Grande Valley, TX) is excellent. Highly affordable. I save a lot here and don't miss anything.

Opportunities open themselves up as well. You can get a really nice homes here: https://www.zillow.com/mcallen-tx/ + hit "remove boundary". You could snap up houses here and rent em. Buy one. This is a market where I could see it growing in the next 5-10 years with more remote work.

Dallas, Houston, and Austin were all viable opportunities but the cost just didn't have the value. Harlingen / Brownsville / McAllen, if you google it, often come up dead first for cheapest cities.

That said, it's way out there. TX is super big. This is 2.5+ hours away from Corpus Christi, 5 hours away from Houston. It makes flying a pain. So it doesn't fit a lifestyle where you need to bounce around a lot. So I highly doubt the prices will fluctuate much, but a lot of TX is like that.

And the SpaceX Starship place is near us (Boca Chica, TX)

I mean, why not NOLA if you want 5 hours away from Houston?

I've done it for years.

There's not much to say about it really - it's what you make of it, which means it can be horible or amazing depending on how good you are at managig yourself and your environment.

In my case, I am several timezones ahead of the rest of my time, which means in general my social life on weekdays is pretty much non-existant, which is a bit isolating.

Except for moving temporarily for gigs at Google and Capital One, my wife and I have lived in the mountains of Central Arizona since 1998. Almost no tech culture in my small town, with occasional exceptions. It is OK, I have lots of non-tech friends locally, and when I work I am paid to have technical discussions.

I've lived in the Midwest my whole life, mostly in college towns with small stints in Midwest cities. Nothing techy.

Today I work remotely for a company based in California, but previously I've worked at several local firms, largely B2B, contract and full time. We are actually moving somewhere out west, for non professional reasons.

For my particular slice of the Midwest:

Pros:

- Local jobs do exist, especially around a few urban centers

- Your wages go further here, especially if you earn a coastal salary

- Maybe local companies are a little more WLB oriented

Cons:

- Local jobs are largely around a few very specific industries (ag, insurance)

- Your org might run a little differently than you'd expect coming from the valley (dress codes, non technical leadership, older tech and older deployment practices)

- less "to do", and fewer takeout options

Nothing too unexpected, and you have the same pros and cons of normal remote work. Lot of freedom, limited social interaction.

WLB = Wacky Local Bakeries?

Work Life Balance

I suspect you're asking whether you'll regret taking a job for a local company with an option to work remotely rather than holding out for a more "tech" focused company that enables better networking opportunities?

Why would you hold out if you're uncertain? Or are you hesitant you won't like it?

Who says you can't test the waters for a few months while looking for other remote opportunities?

I don't know what's important to you but I'd ask that first. Remote opportunities abound; there weren't this many remote opportunities 10 years ago. Find what works you and don't be afraid of change. You can always relocate when your personal life settles or you may decide not to.

Company is good, I did an internship there (not remote). So I'm not holding out for something better. But When I start I'll have the option to work from the office or work remotely.

Question more relates to the trade-offs of taking the opportunity to gain experience working remotely. I've heard remote jobs are more commonly offered to people with several years of work experience, so this is a chance to jump start the process.

I know a lot of people working remotely for either themselves (as consultants) or for companies in the bay area. Sometimes from random place in the US, sometimes from random places in the world. I also work remotely, and have worked remotely, for big corps. I don't see this as a career limiter at all, it's much less stressful to do presentations/meetings remotely, it's also much easier to control your own time. You also save more, if you don't live in a big city. Now, if you like living in a big city, then of course it sucks, but the other side is that you spend most of your time at home so it's nice to have a bigger home with an office.

I've been visiting Albany, NY. Nestled betwixt the Catskill mountains, the Adirondacks and the Berkshires. I always went for the natural beauty: ziplines, hacker crafts on Lake George, skiing etc.

But its actually legacy home to industrial powerhouses: GE R&D, once the world's largest corporate research lab. IBM which used to boast having hundreds of PhD's there. And more recently a thriving indie video game scene. Vicarious Visions, recently acquired by Blizzard, employs 200+ downtown.

So while you may imagine your "non-tech" hamlet is devoid of any conspicuous tech scene. You may actually discover one. Lurking just below the surface ;)

I get a lot more work done. Fewer interruptions. And it's enabled me to hire a person I would not have normally thought to hire because he lives in another city. The pandemic forced me to realize how easy it is to remote work in a tech field.

Exactly. The whole world is your workplace -- you can work from anywhere really easily in tech, and you can hire anywhere as well. Plus for team retreats and such (after COVID of course) you can head to a new location each year and visit a coworker. Bangalore, Prague, Springfield IL, Panama City, etc.

There's almost certainly other developers in your city - even if you're in the middle of nowhere :)

Check out local meetups especially, and you'll probably find a smaller, but interesting group of developers you can connect with.

The only meetups in my area are on FarmersOnly.com

:) remote meetups then...

but even still - there's probably at least ONE other tech person in your area. It may be difficult to find them, but it's worth it (for sure) to get a community going.

This isn't like online communities where you need 1,000 people before it's interesting. Even just 3 people can make a very interesting local community

We should not underestimate the amount of knowledge transfer we're going to lose out on.

I learned how to be a dev from the senior devs around me in the first few years of my career.

I couldn't imagine not having that opportunity.

This is a not a small thing.

With current workplace leadership that has already been lost a decade ago.

I'm currently in the process of moving from a major metropolitan area (DFW) to a town with a population under 4k.

There's fiber internet, and starlink will hopefully be out this year for North America.

One of the best decisions I've ever made, but it depends on what you like.

I find it peaceful and comforting to write code on my back porch, looking at the trees and the occasional deer stopping by.

There are tradeoffs though. Long drive (1.5 hrs) to nearest Best Buy. Delivery dates for online orders are much longer.

I've been much more productive at work since I removed myself from the bustle of urban life.

I don't think there is any downside in having a remote job in a tech vs non-tech city, unless you: a) enjoy going to in-person tech meetups b) want to have the option to also find local onsite jobs

If you already live in a non tech city and you've been offered a good remove job, I'd consider that a big win. Take it! Once you start working remotely and build a resume as a good remote worker, it's also easier to get future ones (i.e. companies know you're used to it, you like it, you'll work efficiently that way, etc).

I live in Burgas, Bulgaria and working from the local business incubator has been nice. Rent is 200-250 EUR/ pm & young people generally speak English. Additionally, it is quite a calm place with little to no crime. There are no cons to me at least because during this pandemic I cannot meet other people anyway even if I was in The Netherlands where I lived. Burgas is a cheap destination with a lot of great natural and community sights and experiences to be seen. Highly recommend it.

I have houses in Milwaukee and Tucson and go back and forth between the two. There's enough remote jobs out there now that I feel comfortable going back and forth between the 2 cities. There are times when I wish I could build camaraderie with teammates by being in the office together, but for the most part I feel pretty comfortable being remote. We do audio calls at least once a day so it's nice to have that sort of communication. If it were only IM I think that would be too difficult to do.

I wouldn't trade my remote work for anything in the world. It's incredibly rewarding. The flexibility this allows for is unparalleled by any other single benefit a job can offer other than salary perhaps.

It's given me so much freedom and independence in life. Source: I'm what most people would consider an introvert and I've been working from home since 2006.

I currently reside in a sleepy mountain town in California and I couldn't be happier here.

Your org and team need to support remote first. This means lots of documentation, slack and zoom calls. Otherwise you need a key partner e.g your manager to keep you in the loop. So your written comms need to be solid. That and you have to be really good at planning. I also find I work more. When you have collaborative projects you really need to have excellent communication skills and excellent documentation for dependencies.

Good information, in my opinion remote work, besides being a good solution during the pandemic, will be the new way to work. That's why we must take all the recommendations and precautions, I learned all about it at https://demyo.com/

I am remote now (and have been on and off before), and I was most happy doing it when I had a small office shared with some other similar folks, and went in there 2 or 3 times a week. (Technically I still do, but...covid) You can still get company and even connections working around other techies who don't work for the same place as you.

If you're a remote worker why does it make any difference that it's a non-tech city?

I moved out of a large city to continue working as an engineer for the same company remotely during the pandemic. In general it is much safer and less dense being out of the city, and much more greenspace and nature. I very much prefer it.

If there are other co-workers going into the office, you will need to spend extra time communicating. It is easy to miss out on opportunities to add value to the company when you are not in the office with everyone else.

Seems reasonable. Though these days remote work experience isn't really necessary, so don't feel limited to just the local company.

getting a remote job isn't hard in 2021 and it sounds like you're fairly well set where you live. it'd be different if you needed coworkers to eg bootstrap/lean on for your social life after a fresh move. you'll be fine.

Anyone here moved to a rural area or homestead type scenario?

As long as the internet is good, why not!

Expect to work their time zone, which may conflict with your local time zone. East coast vs west coast is a big deal.

You'll also be making a shitton of money, even with their CoL adjustment, so, don't be a dick about it.

> You'll also be making a shitton of money, even with their CoL adjustment, so, don't be a dick about it.

CoL adjustment is a pretty bad signal. If the company has time and money to pay folks to try to squeeze every penny it can from CoL it's not trying to attract the best talent.

I believe in rewarding contributors proportionally to their contributions, not some arbitrary spreadsheet HR cooked up.

Just my suspicion but I think the big thing is going to be what happens when you leave your remote job and try to find a new one.

At the moment, in Silicon Valley, that answer is pretty obvious. . . you can find another job. Outside of silicon valley it's going to be curious to see what happens when you quit your remote job at Google and try to find another one.

My suspicion is the RSU package is not going to be as generous. This is just my suspicion.

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