Tesla's new steering yoke isn't retro, it's a safety risk
cnet.com
cnet.com
This whole problem is actually to do with what the public wants. Designers are delivering exactly what they want. And customers are ruined by conditioning from marketing that "touchscreens are better! who wants those stupid buttons and dials", bean counters are getting their bonuses because they just replaced expensive buttons/dials (with automotive reliability ratings) with a $13 touchscreen a bunch of software to control stuff. So, we're never going to get out of this.
The market for utilitarian design is vanishingly small. The public is depressingly gullible and moronic.
After driving Model 3 for a couple of years, I have to say that the touch screen is not a usability problem. The controls I need to have quick access to are not on the touch screen, and the ones that are on that screen, are controls I would have to take my eyes of the road and look for anyway.
I will have to grant that they have gone a bit overboard with putting controls in the touch interface, and I still don't get why the glove box opening button is in the touch UI, but that isn't a problem by any means.
I was a bit skeptical of the Model 3 UI, before I got it. But for me it is clearly a step up in usability from the "a million little buttons with weird symbols that who knows does what", and while that view of traditional car interfaces might be a bit unfair. So is all the "any touch screen UI in a car is bad", sentiment going around. Touch interfaces can work well in a car, as long as you don't need to use it for the drive task, but only for auxiliary tasks that don't need, and shouldn't be split seconds tasks.
(not hit them with the high beams)
How do you turn on defog if the windshield becomes obscured?
these are the kinds of things I think about.
The model S is a little better but it isn't perfect either, it has the same problem: defog and changing the temperature on climate control has to be done carefully by looking over and down. Now it will get more of these issues heaped on like turn signals windshield wipers and more.
On my Model Y, it is a simple pull of the left steering wheel stalk to do that, the same on all other cars I've previously owned. On my prior car, flashing the non-bright lights would've required turning an awkwardly positioned dial that also controls fog lights and running lights. That is easier than the touchscreen method but still poor UX while driving.
flashing on/off/on/off means "turn on your headlights" or "speed trap ahead"
My main complaint on our Model 3 is the windshield wiper control. The Auto setting is terrible at actually detecting rain so I can't use it. The manual adjustments require multiple taps and it hides itself again after a few seconds.
A Model 3 in Europe works like this:
- Three presses for fog light control, where you might need it immediately due to weather and altitude changes
- Utterly rubbish rain/drizzle sensing and wipers that can only be switched on for one motion via stalks. Only way to get them constantly going manually is A SWIPE and button press in a moving car when visibility has already dropped.
That's just two of the worst, I won't go into the problem with their new UI (last big update) which has completely ruining the minimal ergonomics that existed for figuring out your speed/regen/etc.
The problem is that it's one of those things where it's best to be a thief among honest people. People want to drive cool cars, regardless of safety. However, they do not want other people driving unsafe things to crash into them.
So we end up in this weird situation where consumers are demanding the exact same things they want safety boards to ban. Some people want these new Knight Rider steering wheels, but they don't want people using drag tires on the road. The people that want to use drag tires on the road don't want people to have the Knight Rider steering wheels. So we end up with demand for both, and safety commissions trying to ban both.
One: the customers want this
Two: the customers are conditioned into buying this by coercive marketing
I don't believe that Tesla customers asked for this change, so I'd tend more towards the second viewpoint.
It's much like the smartphone market: we're constantly told that the market doesn't want small or thick phones, but the market isn't given the choice.
edit: typoed.
I am mostly concerned on lack of crumple zones for the vehicle. Given it's planned weight and performance collisions will be deadly for other vehicles.
(The US is fairly unique in that most states will allow you to take an easy written test and then immediately drive a >200hp motorcycle. That's not a common situation in most of the world, so please don't use that as a counterargument. 16 year olds owning 1000+hp ferraris/koenigseggs is also effectively banned by upfront cost and insurance premiums; the edge case of very rich people doing it exists but is, again, an edge case)
> I'd love to see what your clothes look like. I assume either none of your clothes has any adaptations for fashion over function OR you're gullible and moronic?
There's a reason why we don't wear ties in manufacturing plants.
You mean like calling people gullible and moronic?
>There's a reason why we don't wear ties in manufacturing plants.
There's a reason why we don't call everyone who wears ties gullible and moronic. There's a reason we don't condemn ties.
TFA quite specifically does not condemn yokes in all situations. They work in some (racing) and not others (everyday drivers).
Not sure which of gullible and/or moronic applies to you, but at least one does.
Here is an F1 racing wheel - used in some of the highest (not lowest) performance driving.
https://www.popsci.com/f1-racing-steering-wheel-complicated/
Airbus moved away from yolks on their planes as part of a move towards greater automation, with great success. Same arguments were made there BTW.
The market for utilitarian design is high. Tesla's for example have some of the LOWEST injury rates per mile driven. The whole package (which is how this all should be judged) is safer than many cars driving on the roads today.
A design that for example allows someone to drive faster than 10MPH (which clearly reduces safety) should be condemned?
I condemn this type of absolutely ridiculous over the top language use and this ridiculous absolutism.
This is addressed in the article:
"And indeed Formula One and many other forms of on-road racing feature steering wheels that look like oversized Batarangs. The thing is, those cars offer swift steering ratios, needing as little as 180 degrees of rotation to turn from the left-most steering extent to the right. Your average street car? Try 900 degrees of rotation from full left to right. That's two and a half turns. More rotation means slower turning, yes, but it also means more precision and frankly greater safety. A razor-sharp steering rack is a great thing on the racetrack."
[0]: https://forums.tesla.com/discussion/113303/steering-and-brak... [1]: https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/does-the-s-steer-by-...
Unless your commute involves a closed course, how is this remotely relevant? Better yet, TFA specifically addressed this point.
It's worth remembering that an F1 racing car is not road legal and are not driven in traffic.
I've personally never seen someone pull out of a parking space in an F1 single-seater.
It's also worth remembering that, unlike Tesla, the author of the article never did any real usability tests for the steering yoke design...
Note this is also why big rigs usually have an additinal rotating handle attached to their wheels, since their ratios are very loose due to their weight and thus may need to turn their wheel 10+ times.
Anyway, big rigs have loose steering because they need precision at highway speeds. The point is to minimize accident risks due to physics rather than any purely mechanical limitation.
The opposite is actually true. Big rigs have loose steering so that the driver will Not jack knife the truck in a panic situation.
A tighter steering rack is Much more precise. Street tires, and especially racing tires, work best (have the most grip) at very narrow slip angles.
Here's a Wikipedia about the "friction circle" as racers call it. "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_of_forces#:~:text=From%..."
Here's a Great video shot at the Nürburgring showing an astonishing lap record of the Porsche 919 Hybrid race car, precision personified... Enjoy!
Semi’s air suspension seats bounce around quite a bit which prevents them from keeping their hands steady. So, they need to dampen the input from such motions at highway speeds as race car style steering with would be counter productive in terms of precision. Which is why they have to turn the wheel so much.
It’s also useful for mechanical leverage should power steering go out.
Now I'm not saying I have ever driven a car with the insane performance of an F1 car. I did however walk away from an offer for a fully funded season to race a Swift DB6 (2 liter) after I had tested in that year's national championship winning car. What a fucking car, I loved that car! There were two reasons why I walked away from that offer: Mainly because I am Not brilliant at learning new race tracks. And the faster and more expensive the race car--the less time you have to learn a new circuit and get into your racing rhythm (I suspect this is because I did not race as a child. I was in my twenty's when I started going to racing schools and racing). And the second reason is I was 33 years old at that time; I had a wife, a newborn baby, a contracting business, and a mortgage.
However; I was arguably the fastest Formula Ford driver in America on any given day. I beat a National race winner's lap time by .4 of a second a lap using the exact same car race car in back to back sessions.
For years and years.. and YEARS--all I thought about was how to be a better driver. Every sport I played was done to improve either my balance (driving at the limit, is in good part--feel and balance), my concentration and my strength.
My point is I have some idea of what is required to drive a F1 car. I really don't to put anyone down here: but the fact is a racing driver Would Never Ever buy a self-driving car. And trust me unless you own fire proof underwear and can drive 100 mph on a snow covered road (with winter tires of course. Racers' employ a particular eye technique coupled a steering tactic gives us so much more time to make decisions when we drive. Plus we can drive a car sideways while whistling a happy tune) you would have a hard time imagining just how good GOOD really is.
Launch control, dual clutch transmissions yeah we love that stuff it let's us drive quicker.
Traction control, automatic braking, lane departure systems we hate shit. And No real racer would buy any car where those systems can't be turned off. I turn them off my on car ALWAYS and MOST ESPECIALLY in the Snow, Ice and rain... that shit is off--because I'm FAR better at controlling the car than those systems are.
And why get rid of the stalks? BMW had those annoying turn signal stalks that would always be in the neutral position even if you had the turn signal on. I'm not sure if anyone liked them. I know at least a couple of BMW owners who didn't know how you were supposed to cancel the signal without being explicitly told about it by someone. I think BMW already returned to more sensible turn signal stalks now. I can't fathom at all why you would trade the steering wheel stalk for two buttons on the steering wheel.
Own a BMW with those stalks. Don't mind them actually. There's an adjustment period. I figured it out quickly enough but I will say some people could get confused. I don't like the loud click/adjustment of the stalk moving while I'm finishing a turn. This only became more apparent when I started driving rental cars after owning the BMW. The BMW method does solve that. (All movement of the stalk occurs when you're touching the stalk - never on its own. A good reason for its design I'd say)
That said - the F1 style steering wheel here - while exciting to look at... and very racecar... Is uh, very likely to be wildly impractical for a road car with a typical steering rack/ratio.
I love them and I was thrilled to discover that the Tesla Model 3 has them when I bought mine.
Again, I fail to see the upsides in BMW's (former) design.
This is of course an anecdote, but I'm too tall to sit in a Model 3 and drive it without having my knuckles bump into my knees.
Of course, I should probably buy a Model Y, but a rectangular one (or even a flat bottom one) would great for me for most of the freeway driving.
Though, that might be a unique requirement because I learned to drive stick shifts in India with one hand on the wheel on a Brodie knob, but I think something like that is much safer on a steer by wire rather than the old jeeps.
I think it looks really cool, but I also think the Cybertruck looks really cool :)
Taste Disclaimer: I drive a Prius.
Mazda acknowledged this, and it is why they've gone back to physical controls: https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1121372_why-mazda-is-pur...
The RHS "scroll wheel" on the steering wheel default binds to AC on (press), temp up, temp down. I wish I had buttons that bind to (in the order of importance) DEFROST, and recirculation (on Tesla also the "bio defense mode" which kinda is the proper solution to situations I would need recirculation on my Civic).
And of course the LHS one binds to volume although I've always found car volume adjustments to be... differently nonlinear from car to car, but equally annoying! My Civic being pre-facelift only had volume plus minus buttons (both on the steering wheel and on the side of the screen), yet I never felt bothered.
Without knowing actual characteristics about the updated car handling and setup any comments on safety are idle speculation
Edit: Missed that the article mentions that. Apparently the answer is that you can't. So I guess the next question is whether there's a good alternative?
For comparison, 3 minutes on google turned up a thesis by Chris Post at MIT comparing alternative steering interfaces for "next generation" electric vehicles, including yokes. Apparently they were more difficult to use and had worse performance across almost all metrics, especially braking time. Maybe Tesla's implementation resolves these issues, but they should demonstrate that.
This idea that you can stick a round wheel in some of these terrible sports cars and hypercars and it makes them safe is the height of stupidity. It's the whole package, traction control, safety cage, crumple zones, emergency braking etc.
Nobody said that.
A car might invest a ton in structural safety, and trade that for some cool or sexy features. Be that speed, horrendous visibility or whatever. Some cars this trade results in terrible safety results. Tesla is not one of those yet. There are PLENTY that are.
The irony of course is this adamant view around steering wheels ignores their long history of being an actual safety hazard! Those of us with some memory of early safe issues will remember the data showing that in frontal impacts, steering wheels were being forcibly driven into the chests and bodies of drivers, killing them. There are still issues (usually if folks are too close to the wheel) with skull fractures / hand and wrist injuries etc.
For instance, if Honda put a car bomb in 1 Civic in a million, it'd still be one of the safest car designs around. But it's totally unnecessary, and they should be condemned. That they're overall much safer than my AMC Gremlin doesn't enter into it.
This makes my point even more clearly.
If you have Civics with bombs and civics without, and the ones without have a safety result that is higher overall, even if there is some arguable benefit of the bomb (ie, less likely to be carjacked?) if the design of the cars without the bomb results in a better safety result, those cars should be preferred.
I'm going to leave this here I think - I'm not sure who is on HN anymore, but it does feel like the actual engineering type folks are a smaller group, and so normal tradeoff analysis has turned into the outraged / condemn them type yelling.
And yes, they build vehicles with explosives in them, and those do drive around if there is a use, everything from military tanks, to construction and mining ops have vehicles with bombs in them. While MUCH more dangerous, the tradeoffs are considered worth it.
So you look at the whole package.
I want yellow blinkers on all vehicles. Something as basic as that is not required. Fast cars are allowed. And now we are not only saying that a different design shouldn't even be allowed to be considered, but the folks considering the design should be "condemned"?
Heads up - Tesla, and eventually others are pushing HARD on greater autonomy. I wouldn't be surprised if more and more designs started reducing the number of passenger controls. Airplanes have had this happen too. Spaceships same thing, crew dragon a lot fewer buttons. They were condemned for that as well.
My own guess? Tesla is too far ahead here (ie, their AI supplement is not yet ready), and may get reeled back.
But they are pushing this way. They don't want side mirrors, they want cameras as an example, and yes, folks condemn them for that too even through the fuel savings would be incredible. Folks condemned them for their "dangerous" batteries. They've been condemned repeatedly, but their death rates per mile driven are far better than the news stories make it seem.
Have you driven either ?
However, in my experience with them as a Tesla Model Y owner, I don't trust Tesla to do it right. My Tesla's rain-sensing wipers are the worst rain-sensing wipers I've ever owned. To the point where my Tesla wipers are normally kept OFF instead of 'Auto' as I have had it in my BMW, Porsche and Volvo cars. I have to manually adjust wipers in the Tesla. Also, the FSD package makes the cruise control usable about 50% of the time. The rest of the time CC is worse than my 1982 Chevrolet Camaro. I could go on, but my point is made.
The only Tesla technology I'm impressed with is the motors and battery. That's what I bought it for, that's what I expected to get, and beyond that the car hasn't impressed me. So I won't give them benefit of the doubt with any new technology. They still can't get wipers or cruise control right, so why should I?
If steering wheels went from this shape to round you could write a similar article making up similar reasons why the status quo was better.
These critics end up sounding like someone just introduced flush toilets and they can't possibly see how that's better: "You mean you have to flush?". Or perhaps Doctors washing their hands between patients: "Who has time for that!? I have people to cure!"
I'm not saying that everything Tesla does or is doing is perfect, or even better. But to dismiss it out of hand, without even trying it, is mind-boggling. Case in point, the most recent Tesla 3/Y update changed the on-screen GUI quite a bit and a lot of people got upset over it. Sure there are things that I didn't like about it, at first, but I reasoned that there are a lot of pretty smart people behind it and they probably had a reason for the change. Give it a chance.
Tesla has a lot of smart people and there is probably a reason behind this new steering wheel. I'm willing to give it a chance. If it turns out that, in practice, this new design is terrible or dangerous I'll join the chorus of naysayers shouting it down. We'll see.
>There is a major difference between the self-certification standards in the United States and Europe's homologation rules. In the US, manufacturers build their cars to be roadworthy and they are checked by agencies on a random basis. In Europe, "50 to 60 regulations must be observed for vehicles," Teller said. How pickup trucks are tested also differs greatly in the US, where most light-duty models are exempt from passive safety and pedestrian protection.
https://carbuzz.com/news/tesla-cybertruck-wont-be-legal-in-e...
What changes though is the power of the electric assist, which decreases as speed goes up, making it harder to turn the wheel, giving eased maneuvering and increased precision + hard to yank at high speed.
This doesn’t preclude that steering might be driven automatically, but the wheel will then turn by itself.
Which is also why it should be round (or almost so, some have a small flat area at the bottom) as it acts as a guard for any unexpected rotation.
Not sure what you mean exactly, but it's not true that only assist power can be modulated. BMW cars with "Active Steering" have been available in Europe since 2003. These cars use a gearbox to achieve a variable steering ratio.
Seems like it’s similar to an automatic gearbox (planetary system).
I’m not sure the benefit is worth the added complexity, but hey, who am I to judge, maybe it’s that much better.
Having that uninterrupted connection would mean that car speed cannot affect how much wheels turn when you turn the steering wheel, but I don’t see how that necessarily follows. Couldn’t a first gear change that “more than 360 degrees” rotation in one that’s a lot smaller, and a second gear introduce a nonlinearity?
(Question isn’t about actual cars (I know very little about their steering mechanisms), just about the logic)
You’d need some sort of gearbox. Of course fixed gears means jumping ratios, and that would mean some sort of clutch (stick style) or converter (automatic style), the jump would make for a surprising and poor experience. There’s the possibility of having a conical pulley system too (see continuous gearbox).
Lots of added complexity for very little benefit IMHO.
Finding yourself in an emergency situation grasping at thin air because there's no continuous wheel to grab seems dangerous.
P.S. Seems like all the stalks are "touch buttons on the yoke". Which is unfortunate.
then thinking a bit longer, I thought this WILL kill people.
(for completely different reasons that the article writer)
The first danger is that steering wheels are used as a grab handle.
A steering wheel is used to control the direction of the car.
But it is ALSO used unofficially the driver to support himself, sort of a "grab handle". You can say this is a misuse of a steering wheel, but people still do it. (did you know you should grip a motorcycle with your knees and use the handlebars for steernig only? most people don't do that either)
The problem here is that depending on where you grab the wheel, it may change the direction of the car. This can sort of happen with a normal wheel, but it is not as pronounced. With the yoke your hand will probably put torque on the wheel.
The second reason is bumping.
If you bump a normal steering wheel, it doesn't change the direction of the car.
With the yoke, for example banging on the top of the wheel except in the exact center will probably change the direction of the car. This also applies underneath, say if you bump it with your leg or body.
(I can imagine this going terribly wrong with a car full of kids in a model X)
The third reason is the stalks and position.
Control stalks are convenient and you can find them with your fingertip. They are in a fixed position, no matter what way you are steering.
steering wheel mounted controls do not benefit from the same fixed positioning.
Have you ever tried adjusting the volume on a steering wheel control? Now do it when the wheel is tilted. same idea.
the fourth reason is stalks and separation.
Control stalks are also "shrouded/protected" by the wheel. They are behind the wheel and protected from most accidental input. If you've accidentally beeped your horn, that's sort of the idea. It's harder to accidentally turn on your turn signal by accident (even though it can happen). It seems like the turn signals on the front of the wheel next to the control wheel might suffer from that.
And just personal preference not related to safety:
I liked the model S control wheels - they seemed to be pretty good ergonomically.
I hated the model 3 control wheels - they felt like a $5 mouse and did not have the right feel.
honestly, I think the wheel should be an option.
and I am glad the dashboard still exists.
Until these people actually try this steering wheel they should shut up.
It is a concern, it could cost lives, it should be raised.
(no snark need reply, please)
Words are one thing, actual implementation another, but at least he's publicly acknowledging the precipitous nature of introducing this technology to the public.
[0] https://www.seattletimes.com/business/tesla-is-putting-self-...
Either one should be an immense red flag, regardless of what agreements they've gotten beta testers to sign.
There are lots of stories of 'experiments' done wrong, and these are why research ethics and review boards exist.
Experiments have no inherent value.
It's ridiculous to say that the car will be dangerous because a round wheel 'shields' more of your hand in a side impact. It's also silly to imply people won't be able to find the wheel when they need it. He clearly has never so much as sat in the car, muchless conducted a study evaluating the wheel's usefulness, making this just a hit piece.
Citation? This sort of hand-waving dismissals of Tesla's innovations are nothing new. While I'm also suspicious of this steering interface I wouldn't write a blog post denouncing it without backing that up with evidence/studies ... hell even anecdotal comments from people who've used them.
Lots of things are innovative about Tesla vehicles but a steering yoke isn't one of them. It's a very old concept car trope, going as far back as the 1950s.
The basic idea behind variable steering ratios is, you space the teeth of your rack and pinion closer together in the middle and further away on the ends. This makes the wheel feel more sensitive in the middle. [1]
Here is a car with a square wheel that nobody liked: [2]
[1] https://autozine.org/technical_school/traction/Steering_2.ht...
You mean like ... an electric car?
Listen to yourself: "Tesla is the Apple of cars" They took something that already existed (electric cars), re-engineered it and created something truly innovative.
"No wireless. Less space than a nomad. Lame."
No clue what that cmdrtaco quote has anything to do with this conversation, but let me be clear here: you're the one giving Telsa credit for things they didn't do, not me.
They are not common. Mostly nowadays a similar effect is created via variable assist. Human interface-wise, nonlinear controls are REALLY not a great idea without specific training.
If you look at airplanes, where pilots are type rated, you have a lot more controls mixing with electronic flight controls and various regimes. The yoke/stick might control pitch at one point, angle of attack at another, altitude in another, and control surface deflection in another...or more realistically a mix of all of the above. Multiply by 6 dimensions of control.
I think about my mother. Recently we rented a Subaru Outback. I was comfortable with the minor force/lane centering control actions it took while on cruise control. She on the other hand couldn't handle it - it became a negative feedback loop. It woudl correct her into the cetner of the lane, and she responded to it as 'the car pulling' and would over react and put us in the next lane. The car correcting itself was disconcerting and provoked a corresponding reaction that was programmed in her brain as 'correct' because the heuristic was 'force through the wheel = something wrong'.
The issue here isn't whether the car does something good or bad, it is whether it does something that the average driver reacts to in a safe an appropriate way. That comes from meeting their preconceptions as to how steering behaves, unless Tesla wants to argue for type-certing their owners.