Every time I go to the doctor I wish I could take myself to the vet instead.
What I’m getting at is that for most animals the owner can be compensated for accidental death easily. (How much is a head of cattle at auction?)
Not that this explains all the discrepancy, but it may explain a non trivial percentage.
Here's some FDA guidance on how to translate doses from animals to humans: https://www.fda.gov/media/72309/download
I generally agree with your sentiment - regulation and insurance overhead are big costs. I do think some people should be able to do the basics at home if they wanted. Basic sutures are a pretty good example, you could even save that $150 that you mentioned.
See the reviews on this product page: https://www.amazon.com/InstaMorph-Moldable-Plastic-6-oz/dp/B...
The service needs to be available in some form at least for folks like me that have an essential tremour or otherwise are limited in fine motor skills.
This also contributes to the amount of emergency room treatments that could have been trivially handled with earlier intervention. A boil that has gone septic is a very serious medical condition, but nearly all boils can be trivially resolved with a short regimen of antibiotics.
A sterile suture kit is about $2 as well.
If you cannot afford US dental care, and you are not super poor, get a 1 way ticket via Kiwi.com to a more “eastern” European Union country like Croatia or Poland. If you use scripts from GitHub or are very good at searching you can get such tickets for $200-$250. You can find extremely excellent dentists with great qualifications and reviews in countries like that, and many have amazing reviews and are super cheap.
A lot of people from EU countries, that do not have “socialized dental care” go to countries like that a couple times a year to get dental care.
> If you use scripts from GitHub or are very good at searching you can get such tickets for $200-$250.
This is the average cost, per tooth, of the work I had done here 2 years ago, in the US, at a dentist where I paid cash.
> You can find extremely excellent dentists with great qualifications and reviews in countries like that, and many have amazing reviews and are super cheap.
I’m wondering how cheap they have to be in order to make it cheaper to fly to europe. How much would be an extraction or a filling replacement?
When I lived in the US, I had an individual plan through Costco (Delta Dental) that was quite a good deal. It was a Dental HMO plan, though. Really, the only thing I noticed that it did not cover was implants. However, Costco only offers it in a handful of states: https://www.costco.com/dental-insurance-services.html
Alternatively, you can get an individual dental plan through Delta Dental Plan in any state here: https://www1.deltadentalins.com/individuals.html
In both cases above, if you get the Dental HMO, it has no annual or lifetime maximum dollar limits, no waiting periods, or pre-existing condition clauses.
Anyways, I used my American dental insurance to get cleanings, X-Rays, and fillings. I go to Europe a couple times a year at minimum anyways, so I use that to my advantage by getting more advanced dental care there.
Dental implants, especially Swiss implants, can be 8 times cheaper than what some dentists charge in the US. A Swiss implant, when all said and done, costs about $1000 USD in the more eastern EU countries.
You may want to check out this website: https://www.whatclinic.com/dentists/worldwide
I would stick to European Union countries, as the quality of materials is very high. There is some website like the link I posted above, that has implant success rates posted, by dentist. I just do not remember the website's name. Anyways, you take your time and do extensive research before you choose your dentist.
Anyways, I have a very rare immune-mediated disease affecting my autonomic nervous system, which affects salivation, so my teeth are totally jacked up, even though they look really nice. I also have type 1 diabetes, and it makes my teeth naturally more prone to infections. So, cost-wise, I am screwed when it comes to dental care. I know somebody with the rare disease I have, that has about 20 implants in her mouth.
But, if your teeth are really jacked up, and especially if you need implants (of course it is better than dentures), it is way cheaper to go to European Union countries. This is even for 1 implant. If you may need thousands of dollars in dental care, you may be better off going to the European Union to get that care.
You spend more time with your dog than most people, and I certainly care about him more than any person who is not in my immediate family.
Some of the bills that I've run into have still managed to approach the cost of routine visits at some specialists when billed to my HSA.
I had to get an MRI from a vet hospital in the past. It was still over a thousand bucks, and in the range of quotes I'd gotten for human MRIs before.
I wonder what similar stitches in an urgent care vs a primary care office vs an ER for a human would cost.
You'll hear medical professionals claim imaging is expensive because the machines are expensive. Which just says to me that medical professionals aren't accountants.
Consider a dental w-ray machine. $15-30k. That's the cost of Prius used as a Taxi. You don't pay a couple dollars for a 15 minute Taxi cab ride.
An MRI machine, I forget how much those cost. But whatever, lets compare one with a modern passenger airliner. Cost is about equivalent on a 'per passenger' basis. And an airliner requires highly trained professionals to keep it running.
A new MRI costs ~3 million, has an operational life of 10 years, performs 5000 scans per year, for a total 50,000 people trips.
The people operating the MRI machine are probably payed more than anyone working on the airplane and take vastly more time per passenger.
You seem to be off by a factor of 5 or 10.
https://info.blockimaging.com/bid/92623/MRI-Machine-Cost-and...
https://www.pasadenanow.com/main/lab-in-emerging-biomedical-...
Here is a link for a 7 million suite to house one of the machines https://www.dignityhealth.org/sacramento/about-us/press-cent...
While costs for these machines are going down, even more expensive 7 and 10 Tesla machines are starting to be installed, going up to $14 million
Anyway, your estimate seems to be way off, basing it on a 6 year old puff piece for a cutting edge model that was deployed in a lab. The cost for a typical new MRI is more like $500k.
If you ask "How much does a car cost?" The answer is not "Here are some articles about people buying Lamborghinis that cost $250,000".
Most people are using a middle of the road 1.5 T machine.
If your point is that MRIs less than 3T exist, I agree. If your point is that cheaper MRI exist, I agree. If your point is that nobody has spent 3 mil on a CT, then I disagree. A link showing the price of used machines 10-15 years old isn’t going to change that.
[0] https://www.careerexplorer.com/careers/magnetic-resonance-im...
I agree that it is a very strange comparison between MRI and a plane, I was just chiming in on the capital and employment cost for each could be comparable on a per trip basis, not that MRI prices are where they should be.
In my personal opinion, a major problem with US healthcare is a race to the top, where the newest and best care is sought irrespective of the price. A judgement call needs to made somewhere on cost/marginal benefit, and post-procedure reimbursement debates is the worst way to do it. CT machines can cost between 250K and 14 million, as I mentioned in a sibling post. Similarly, MRI costs can range from $170-$5,500 [1]. In the current system, almost nobody is incentivized to keep costs down. Doctors and insured patients want the best care, as costs are externalized to the insurance pool. Insurance companies want to maximize costs, because their profit margin is limited by a % of spending.
https://turquoise.health/service_offerings?q=MRI&location=90...
My dog had MRIs and ultrasound recently. Each event was $700-$900 a pop.
I take my dog for routine full checkup that includes MRI and Ultrasound whenever I travel to south america. They use the same machine brand as in the US, with same diagnostics. I pay $50-$85 over there for the same tests.
Vets over in SA (not business owners) make about $500-$1000 USD per month.
It would seem the huge cost is not from the machine. Its the labor. I think these are the 2 key differences:
a) Based on my understanding, getting licensed in this SA country is a nonissue. There is in fact an oversupply of vets because its easy to practice.
b) The price for the vet studies is on the 2k-5k year for a private U. Compare with US Colleges.
Regarding quality: Our vet in SA diagnosed my dog after seeing the US diagnostic test reports , over whatsapp. She was correct on her diagnosis from the start. It took 4 different US vets, 3 separate facilities, 4 days of hospital bills ($5000) to arrive at the same conclusion that I got from a whatsapp.
It is not the machine problem. It is a captive market with huge costs related to labor.
Re: the large patient, yikes!
The bores are really small: 55mm or so is not uncommon, so a mouse would fit, but nothing much bigger. Other animals are usually scanned on a machine meant for humans (sometimes even the exact same ones, very early in the morning or late at night).
The $2000 place is associated with a local hospital chain that is well regarded. I guess that is how they could negotiate $2000 for an MRI with insurance and the other place (that I went to) was only able to negotiate $500.
Honestly, the price for health care in the US is all funny money. I've gotten a single shot, of a very common drug, that was billed at $20k, knocked down to $10k with the "insurance discount", so my 10% co-pay ended up $1000, with insurance!
I had a surgery that was billied at $250k where the "discount" was over $150k. That $250k price is clearly not real.
The highest medical bill I've ever paid is £8.50. Of course I pay National Insurance to cover the costs of the healthcare system. But as far as I can tell that's no more expensive than what people in the US pay despite their insurance having not nearly the same coverage.
They have insurance. And if they don't, they declare bankruptcy. It's not permanent. It's a seven-year ding on your credit rating.
I am genuinely interested.
And please don't take any of this as a defense of the current abominable US system. I lost my dad to complications of untreated diabetes because he didn't have health insurance. What I'm saying is that people who should declare bankruptcy often don't, because they think bankruptcy will ruin their life. It won't. It protects you from predatory lenders and gives you a fresh start.
Isn't the issue that health insurance often doesn't cover everything. And that it's very difficult to get health insurance at all if you have pre-existing or chronic conditions (exactly the people who need it the most).
I have never declared bankruptcy and there isn't really a situation that I can foresee where I will need to.
And yes, dental care is all over the map— it feels very much like what I imagine US healthcare to be, with co-pays and mystery charges and having to log into my insurance company's online portal to do stuff. The NDP made a bunch of noise in the last election about a national dental plan, though even that effort would only have covered family incomes up to CAD$90k [1], so it wasn't anything like the universal no-questions coverage we have for core healthcare.
1: https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/ndp-dental-plan-fact-check-...
Do people in the States not pay for pet insurance?
We sure did go for it in Toronto. Vets seem to charge by the pound (wait, sorry, kilogram, immigrant…). Large dogs seem to come with large medical bills, and we were strongly advised by friends and family to go for pet insurance.
Now, I am not actually sure that pet insurance, versus setting up a dedicated savings account that we sock money into, was the best idea. If anything, we went for it because I am from the States, and I assume any non-trivial medical issue will be cripplingly expensive.
For me, the cost of routine care, spay/neuter, and a certain amount of unforseen expenses should be part of what you plan for when you get a pet. Beyond that, it's a judgment call as to whether the cost of some treatment is worth it. I know people who have spent thousands of dollars treating cancer in an old dog, and others who have euthanized younger pets who developed expensive but in theory treatable health problems. I don't think either approach is wrong, it's up to the owner.
Funny enough, dental insurance in the US is very straight forward. I have always gotten quotes up front with very clearly explained charges. The way it has worked is dentist talks over with me what they want done, billing person runs the numbers and gives me paper with estimates, and if I agree I pay whatever balance I owe on the way out.
Amazingly straight forward, kind of like how everything else should work...
FWIW Eye doctors and insurance on glasses works just as well.
An example of my frustration with dental: I went to my usual dentist for a checkup, but then he referred me to a specialist. The specialist appointment wasn't going to be for a month, but then they call suddenly and have a cancellation the next day. I end up having to pay full price for the specialist appointment because my insurance doesn't like that I had two "assessment" appointments back to back.
On another occasion, I was quoted a procedure, and my decision for when I wanted to have it done was driven entirely by which insurance-year it was going to fall under, rather than by my convenience or how urgent it was, or anything else.
I know these are fundamentally "insurance issues" and I suppose better supplemental insurance could make them go away, but at the end of the day, just like with Americans, my insurance is chosen by my employer and I have basically no control over it.
It's uncommon here in Norway, unheard of in fact as far as I am concerned. I have a checkup once a year that includes a really thorough cleaning procedure and x-rays. That costs about 120 USD. If I need a filling that will probably add about 100 USD at the most and the two crowns (milled ceramic done on site, on demand) that I have cost about 500 USD each so over the last thirty years I have spent about 6000 USD on dentistry, so an average of 200 USD per year.
They can, but they vary. I'm a citizen of both countries and there's one allergy medicine I take where the generic price in the US is the same as the name brand price in Canada. The name brand in the US is 7x higher than the name brand in Canada.
The vet always guilts me into some sort of stupid test. Usually I walk out of there $300 lighter.
Seems pretty similar to the vet. But that's just an office visit. The expensive stuff is at a hospital when the CYA care shows up.
Which is why they spend 5 minutes on you, 90 minutes after your scheduled appointment time.
In the countryside people tend to have a more utilitarian view of animals and would simply get a new one rather than wasting money keeping a sick animal alive.
I'm not.
When it was our cat's time too, I was struck by his end of life experience versus that of a human. Whereas a human could have exhausted their life savings on futile treatment or end of life hospice care, Denver cat went quietly into that good night on his favorite blanket surrounded by his loved ones.
I'm currently in need of some very common medical treatment, but the maze of providers I need to go through in order to get a referral just ain't worth it. Versus, if I were a cat or dog, I could simply go to the area university veterinary hospital and likely get my answer same day.
Pieter Hintjens (of ZeroMQ and AMQP fame) chose this option when diagnosed with terminal cancer, and wrote about it extensively at [1] and [2].
I suspect there is an order of magnitude in the difference in level of care that goes into the average person vs dog. I mean, for one, it is very common to hear things like - "well, you have to remember, their lifespan is short. They only have a year or so left to live." This just isn't a discussion that is had with people.
Except doctors. Doctors refuse life extending treatments at a much higher rate than general population of patients.
Find a 4-5 story parking garage and stand up on the edge. That part of your brain that kicks in and tells you to get back down to safety will also tell you to pour every cent you have in to buying a few more weeks.
This can change when there is no "back to normal" available. When your quality of life is shot and you know that tomorrow won't be better than today.
In a suicidal person who jumps off that building we consider this a tragedy because there's usually no physical reason that those feelings couldn't have passed, why their life couldn't have been normal again.
But in someone with a terminal condition and a body that's just done... and especially if they're well informed about the realities of their medical condition... yes, there can be things you care about more than throwing every cent you have into extending the pain.
But I think there's truth to both points, and every single case will be different.
I believe the only blocker to allowing euthanasia in the developed world is a potential for abuse.
Part of this could be that pets are limited in their ability to communicate details of their feelings to humans, making it harder for humans to tell the difference between a pet that is acting off because of something that they will recover from without a trip to the vet and one that is acting that way because of something that is serious and is going to go downhill fast if you don't take them to a vet soon.
This leads to vets first going to the vet for a given illness later into that illness than a human with a similar illness would have went to the doctor, hence a greater chance of it being too late.
With my cat (and this would likely be the case with any of my cats...) we took a reasoned look at the medical options and the quality of life choices. It wasn’t exactly cheap, but we basically bought him a year of life. If it had been a human family member, we would have gone through exactly the same decision, IE: do you want to keep fighting and do you want to go through this procedure or not?
I plan to go back if I ever need a major medical procedure.
I've always opted to be treated locally when needed - but I also pay for an emergency evacuation service that puts my butt on a jet back to the states if things go pear shaped.
BTW, there's no out of pocket cost for preventive care for those with insurance in the US. There hasn't been since the Affordable Care Act became effective.
By contrast your odds of a catastrophic collision have more to do with drivers and driving collisions than they do with whether you got an oil change recently. If they were insuring your cost of major repairs and buying a new car, then they would have an incentive to get involved with routine maintenance as well.
Alas, those checkups and screenings still cost the same, regardless of who is paying for them. So when you decouple payment from benefit, you create adverse incentives.
So it's not entirely out of the question that they could give discounts for properly maintaining your vehicle, if that were a major cause of accidents and it could be tracked.
I think the two practical problems with this view are (a) what's routine to you might be catastrophic (or at least seriously detrimental) to someone else, and (b) missing routine care often leads to catastrophic outcomes.
Whether a cost is insurable is not subjective. The gp observed that insurance only works to manage risk. Insurance against a risk of 100% certainty costs more than managing the risk itself. Insurance that covers doctor’s visits takes a certain expense and runs it through a system designed for uncertain expenses, thereby adding essentially parasitic loss.
> missing routine care often leads to catastrophic outcomes.
As a sibling comment observed, this is already something that insurance companies deal with. Failure to obtain regular and preventative care makes one more likely to need intervention, which means the cost of insuring the patient is more. Therefore people who are actually paying for catastrophic insurance can save money by going to checkups. This would decrease costs, rather than cause them to baloon like insuring high probability events.
You’re using a very narrow definition of insurance that doesn’t cover health insurance in the US.
It's a healthcare regulations being used as corporate welfare problem.
My dad is a PCP who switched his practice over to that model several years ago. From what he's told me he prefers it a lot over the traditional model specifically because it allows him to have a subscription based model rather than charging per-visit. That means that his revenues are more consistent but also has the benefit of aligning the patients' and doctors' incentives more directly: the doctor makes more money when their patients are healthy than when they are sick so they're incentivized to do a better job.
It also meshes well with telemedicine and chat-based consultations. He was offering both of those options to his patients well before covid because it tends to save both doctor and patient a lot of time, and there's no concern over "how much do I bill for telemedicine vs a normal visit, and how do I bill insurance for it."
Have I ever experienced that "come back in an hour" phenomenon? You bet. Then I went to a different pharmacy.
https://www.federalreserve.gov/publications/2019-economic-we...
An equally imaginary number that gets hauled out during debates so that health care providers can pretend that insurance companies are the ones responsible for price inflation. If you actually try to obtain the cash rate, they'll give you a 2% "lol nice try" discount off the billed rate.
New patient visit: $400 MD or $300 PA
Follow up visit: $200 MD or $150 PA
Labs: $25 draw fee + laboratory cost
(I know this because they screwed up billing the insurance company and got denied, and tried to switch me to cash and bill me the higher amount instead. I love our healthcare system.)
Medicare + Medicaid costs US taxpayers as much per capita as the NHS costs UK taxpayers per capita. Only the NHS provides universal cover for that cost.
US taxpayers are in effect paying twice.
Wonder no more:
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2009/09/how-ame...
"For fun, let’s imagine confiscating all the profits of all the famously greedy health-insurance companies. That would pay for four days of health care for all Americans. Let’s add in the profits of the 10 biggest rapacious U.S. drug companies. Another 7 days. Indeed, confiscating all the profits of all American companies, in every industry, wouldn’t cover even five months of our health-care expenses."
You know how a drug can be tier 2 ($25 copay) or tier 3 (20% coinsurance)? That often the manufacturer offering a lower price in exchange for easier and cheaper access for patients.
Drug companies can also rebate on the back end. If an insurance pays for 1,000 vials of drug, they get a 10% rebate. 2,000 vials, a 20% rebate.
You might find this interesting too. https://slatestarcodex.com/2020/04/20/the-amish-health-care-...
Edit: why is this downvoted?
In the current system you walk in and hand them your card (insurance, Medicare, medicaid, etc) and they treat you. You get mailed a bill later.
Tax funded systems would be similar. Walk in, give them your ID/card and get treated. Get a bill if it's a taxable condition (like Italy).
Obviously there are other non-payment related differences like scheduling and what's covered.
The thing you're missing is that the current system in the USA is in no way like this.
I'm glad we now agree that the current system in the USA is in no way like this.
Or (until recently), you go in for surgery where the surgeon is covered, but then get billed for an out-of-network doctor that consulted without anyone asking you.
Also theres none of this in-network vs out of network chaos. Emergency care always covered, doesnt matter where you go.
It feels like youre trying not to understand how a public option could be better.
This statement assumes a public option (which varies wildly depending on the one) is better.
The parent comment wasn't about a public option or getting a card. It was a complaint that recieving care at a provider is extremely complicated. At that stage of the process, that claim is incorrect.
I have, among other things, asthma. I'm a 1099 contractor; I buy my own health insurance. Prior to the ACA, which people keep threatening to revoke, I could not buy insurance that covered my asthma. I tried. I shopped around a lot. The same company that provided complete coverage at a previous employer had a pre-existing condition rider on the same policy.
After the ACA, my policy now covers my pre-existing condition (Yay!), but I'm paying $750 or so per month for it. If I could not afford $750/month, my options would be considerably narrowed. (And that's before the prescriptions for my pre-existing condition.)
Yes, I go in, I get treated. But my situation demands a pretty hefty bill anyway, or potentially a very large bill. Possibly enough to make me consider not going to get treatment.
Another point is that the people with lower incomes qualify for subsidies under the ACA.
Yes, the mechanics are the same (go to doctor, get a bill), but your purchasing power as individual patient is really small compared to a whole country.
Where is the individual's purchasing power a part of that scenario? Regardless of the group or person paying the provider, the bill is still substantial. The main money saver between the types is in system efficiencies like removing overhead, or instituting restrictions.
I agree, we should remove the overhead created by the existence of private insurance companies.
I've been using the ACA marketplace here in good ol' Alabama, and I've had the opposite problem. There are four choices, all from BC/BS.
Note: I love the ACA. I will fight for the ACA unless and until I'm presented with an actual better option. Prior to the ACA, I had options from other companies, none of which covered my major problem.
The part where you are one of the people who doesn't have a card from insurance, Medicare, Medicaid, etc.
* I walk in, and they can tell me right away whether I will be billed or not. There's no "we'll see" and then maybe I get a bill in a few weeks.
* I walk in to a different doctor's office and the answer as to whether I'm billed or not is the same as at the other doctor.
* Because of these first two items, I walk in and they can tell me ahead of time what my bill will be.
* We can now replace "walk in" with "check their websites (or call) and comparison shop".
Maybe they can't tell me if my treatment is taxed until I'm diagnosed, but that still gives me the option to find out my bill before treatment. Once I'm diagnosed, if it's non-urgent I can shop around.
Price transparency is non-existent in US healthcare. There's no big mystery as to why that would cause inefficiency and absurd costs.
Edit: Why downvote? It's all true.
Apart from being extremely expensive.
The NHS does demand management with waiting lists instead. Basically it's amazing for things that can be easily identified and given cheap medication for (insulin, antibiotics etc), amazing for emergencies which can be resolved with surgery, OK (but variable) for obstetrics, does a decent job at screening for common conditions, but tends to leave anything that won't actually kill you to wait.
I've never had to think about billing.
I think the best demonstration of the quality of the NHS is that despite the low cost of private insurance in the UK, and despite the fact many companies offer health insurance as a perk, only about 10% of the population has any kind of private cover.
This is the way it works for a lot of therapy and mental health services and it’s horrible. Prices are absolutely insane, practitioners are not accommodating to patient schedules, and patients have absolutely zero bargaining power.
In some ways doing it through insurance is kind of like a union. You all agree to accept certain inefficiencies, bureaucracy, etc., (and associated cost) in order for better collective bargaining terms.
Of course people with great jobs usually don’t care about unions. They don’t need the collective bargaining power and thus figure the bureaucracy cost is just a loss they don’t need.
Same thing with very healthy people and insurance. If you’re healthy you just figure, give me cheap catastrophe insurance, what do I care? But if you’re in the depths of the medical industrial complex because you need frequent treatment for chronic conditions, you quickly learn that papering everything over with lots of bureaucracy to adhere it to better collective bargaining for patients is way better, and I’d rather take the nasty, churning quagmire of price inflating insurance than deal with spartan libertarian mini-insurance that essentially just results in rich-get-richer (i.e. genetically lucky healthy people just get to save money while everyone else suffers).
The long term trend is not good; why become a psychiatrist when you can earn more as almost any other specialist? (With exception of pediatry). Jails are collectively America's largest mental health service providers. If there was money in psych work you'd see even private equity pump it up like urgent care chains.
Even with single payer or heavily regulated universal insurance schemes there's often a mental health services gap.
I think that is more a supply/demand issue.
I am not sure why people aren't rushing to become psychologists, it seems like it'd be a profitable field, but there is certainly a huge shortage, at least in major metro areas.
I'd really like to read a proper analysis of the situation...
As I understood it, she was saying basically this:
1. therapists typically just want to work freelance, make their own hours, and don’t mind having very few clients / taking extended breaks from working many hours.
2. therapists don’t want to deal with “challenging” clients (who generally are the most in need of therapy in the first place). “Ability to pay out of pocket” is a good filter to implicitly reject “undesirable” clients.
3. therapists want to externalize the labor burden of coordinating with insurance onto the patient
4. None of this has any connection to charging higher prices - that’s a separate supply & demand phenomenon based on the talent of the therapist, population & demographics of the area, and specializations that deal with issues more correlated with wealthy clients.
My impression from all this has been a massive negative opinion of “working class” therapists and counselors, to the point where I believe they should be required to accept insurance and they should be required to manage the paperwork process of insurance claims as a regulated condition of practicing therapy - it’s a matter of public health that’s in all our collective best interest to enforce with regulation.
Try to find a psychologist, not therapist (there are many paths to get qualifications to become a therapist, and not all of them are exactly HQ), in the pacific NW some time.
The wait time is in months.
There is so much regulation around anything even remotely medically related. Just look at the HIPPA mess.
Edit: why are you downvoting without rebuttal? Its utterly false to claim the system is libertarian.
How is any of this libertarian? The libertarian solution would be that only individuals would be allowed to purchase insurance, that insurance would distribute funds to the individual (not the doctor or pharmacy), all fees would be provided prior to service being rendered and individuals would purchase meds without a prescription.
I work close enough to healthcare that I can say that while insurers do take cost of treatment into account they are looking to minimize ongoing treatment costs - if there is a 5$ pill and a 500$ pill available for treatment the insurer may prefer to trial you initially on the 5$ pill if it's been proven effective for a good proportion of patients, but they do use calculations to minimize those ongoing costs that includes costs from condition escalation (i.e. if you have a boil you're absolutely going to get antibiotics covered since dealing with a septic boil is an emergency room visit.
Note: I've spent on the order of 30 hours on the phone over the past couple months trying to get things sorted out between my doctor, my insurance, and the provider of the drug that I need for my vision. The folks at the insurance can't always help, but they've always been willing to discuss things and see what they _can_ do.
What should have happened is that they should do the ultrasound right there, on the spot. But, the dr's office can't do ultrasounds. That has to go to the imaging department, which had to be scheduled 4 weeks out. Sigh... I won't keep going, but this whole situation is stupid and engineered to extract as much money as possible.
The next time something like this comes up, if you're feeling up to it, try pushing back. If you have the time to throw at it, the worst outcome of trying is usually just staying where you started.
At the end of my many hours on multiple phone calls getting everyone to agree to pay for treatment I need... the company in charge of making it called to let me know they've been retasked to making COVID vaccine and won't be making the drug I need for at least 3 months. So no treatment for at least that long. So that's fun.
To me, libertarianism is simply “might makes right,” with the liberty part being everyone has the opportunity to grow into a bully. I’ve never seen a SINGLE libertarian policy that couldn’t be interpreted this way, and I’m quite open to being corrected.
Libertarianism basically sees two possible crimes: force and fraud. Totally incompatible with "might makes right".
(Dejaque, the founder of libertarianism called Proudhon, the founder of anarchism, a "moderate anarchist, liberal, but not libertarian")
How about Kelo vs New London? This was the Supreme Court case establishing that the government could use eminent domain to seize people's homes and hand the property to private developers, in the interest of raising tax revenue for the city. Libertarians were against it; liberals were for it. Is that "might makes right"?
Which is lovely and all, until those doctors tell you vaccines are worthless and dangerous, and to slather a mixture of beef tallow, garlic, leek, and honey on your injuries.
We could split the difference and expand existing med schools or start new ones with similar standards.
1) independent rating agency for med schools
2) independent rating agency for doctors (i.e. med school was irrelevant)
3) patient reviews for doctors
25 years of amzn have helped established serious questions about (3)(1) and (2) have the usual "who watches the watchers?" problems, which are fairly isomorphous to the problems with (3). And even without those issues, who wants to have do this level of research? Yeah, I know, libertarian nerds (meant with all possible respect). But almost nobody else.
Part of the point (not all of it, to be sure) of things like the AMA, the FDA and other governmental regulation is to make people's lives simpler. Stop worrying about whether the doctor you're going to see has even met a basic level of medical qualification, and focus on whether you like their personality and approach, for example.
Since we already deal with “who watches the watchers” problems in our current system, I see no problem here.
> And even without those issues, who wants to have do this level of research? Yeah, I know, libertarian nerds (meant with all possible respect). But almost nobody else.
Anyone who wants a good physician.
> Part of the point (not all of it, to be sure) of things like the AMA, the FDA and other governmental regulation is to make people's lives simpler. Stop worrying about whether the doctor you're going to see has even met a basic level of medical qualification, and focus on whether you like their personality and approach, for example.
If those things worked, this would be a point. Currently people can’t even afford to go to medical school, or afford to see a doctor, and when they get past the gatekeepers they are so desparate to get treatment that they can’t really even fathom rejecting a doctor because of a poor bedside manner.
Other countries with socialized health care systems (i.e. doctor credential gatekeeping) do not have these issues (certainly not to anything like the extent that we do). I suspect therefore that changing the credentialling process is unlikely to have much impact on these issues and/or is not the most effective way to impact these issues.
> Anyone who wants a good physician.
I'm 57 years old. I've never, ever met anyone who isn't a libertarian nerd (I have friends ...) that checks to see what medical school a physician attended. If they are "checking" at something approximating that level, they do so via clinical affiliation (e.g. "anyone at the Mayo has to be great").
> Since we already deal with “who watches the watchers” problems in our current system, I see no problem here.
Not really. The "watchers" in our current system are government agencies, not private (potentially for-profit, or at least for-big-salary) corporations. The incentives align in significantly different ways.
The easiest way to expand medicine access would probably just be to remove government restrictions on the number of medical schools, the number of hospitals, and the number of physicians. I don’t think we need to dismantle the credential system.
> I'm 57 years old. I've never, ever met anyone who isn't a libertarian nerd (I have friends ...) that checks to see what medical school a physician attended.
This why we have to be careful about generalizing from our own experience conclusively :)
> If they are "checking" at something approximating that level, they do so via clinical affiliation (e.g. "anyone at the Mayo has to be great").
There’s how things are, and how things should be. People ought to take more responsibility for their healthcare and that includes who provides it.
> Not really. The "watchers" in our current system are government agencies, not private (potentially for-profit, or at least for-big-salary) corporations. The incentives align in significantly different ways.
Perhaps you haven’t noticed but the watchers in government agencies and the for-profit, big salary corporations they are supposed to be watching are the same people. its called “regulatory capture” and “revolving door”.
This seems to suppose one (or both) of two things:
1) access to medicine is limited because of the supply of health care providers, so more providers would help
2) access to medicine is limited due to cost, and more providers would force the cost down, as per "supply and demand", "the market" etc.
I'm not aware of much evidence for (1), though I don't deny that it is possible. For (2) to be true, it would have to be the case there can actually be a competitive marketplace for all kinds of health care, and we know that this is not true for (at least) emergency care. Many volumes have been written by people much smarter than me that explain the many reasons why health care is not really susceptible to what are supposedly "normal market" behaviors and benefits. Just increasing the number of doctors will (a) not necessarily drive down the cost of health care nor (b) expand access to health care.> This why we have to be careful about generalizing from our own experience conclusively :)
Certainly in general, this is true. But when the claim is that "anyone who wants a good physician" would do this, not so much. Falsifiability, and all that.
> People ought to take more responsibility ...
This is a moral statement, not some sort of fundamental statement about the nature of reality. Not only is the level of personal responsibility up for the debate, but so is the form such responsibility should take. Citizens in many other countries have chosen to "take more responsibility" for their healthcare in different ways than you are proposing (by taking aggregate action to create socialized health care systems that delegate many things to the system, intentionally).
> Perhaps you haven’t noticed but the watchers in government agencies and the for-profit, big salary corporations they are supposed to be watching are the same people. its called “regulatory capture” and “revolving door”.
Speaking of over-generalizing ... also, "There’s how things are, and how things should be." I do not believe that regulatory capture is an inevitable outcome of a democratic-ish governmental structure.
I’m really not sure what to make of this, there is already a market for things such as emergency care. Even with all the regulation, when you get in an ambulance you can tell them to take you to a specific hospital.
When people are treating non-emergency conditions, the same regulated market offers them even more options. Ikm not really sure what you mean here.
> Many volumes have been written by people much smarter than me that explain the many reasons why health care is not really susceptible to what are supposedly "normal market" behaviors and benefits.
Many volumes have been written on how the four humours can be used to diagnose and treat disease. However modern medicine no longer uses the four humours model. Perhaps it is also time for modern medicine to embrace the scarcity management aspects of markets rather than looking for answers in musty old volumes.
> I'm not aware of much evidence for (1), though I don't deny that it is possible.
It is not only possible, it is the case. The bottleneck is at schools, at residencies, and at licenses. Possibly elsewhere. In a basic simple mathematical way, fewer providers means less access to care.
> Certainly in general, this is true. But when the claim is that "anyone who wants a good physician" would do this, not so much. Falsifiability, and all that.
Certain values of “want” may not be sufficient, as with anything else. Anyone who wants a good physician enough to look for one would perform the due diligence required to obtain one. Kind of like now, actually.
> This is a moral statement, not some sort of fundamental statement about the nature of reality. Not only is the level of personal responsibility up for the debate, but so is the form such responsibility should take. Citizens in many other countries have chosen to "take more responsibility" for their healthcare in different ways than you are proposing (by taking aggregate action to create socialized health care systems that delegate many things to the system, intentionally).
Yes, its a moral statement. And its an interesting question whether people who entrust bureaucrats with healthcare have taken reaponsibility or shirked it.
> Speaking of over-generalizing ... also, "There’s how things are, and how things should be." I do not believe that regulatory capture is an inevitable outcome of a democratic-ish governmental structure.
The problem is that things like social planning of healthcare provision are evidently flawed in every respect due to the belief that they can’t be trusted to markets. We don’t want to believe we are getting competent care because the government says so, we want to have confidence we are getting competent care because the incentive structure is aligned witn the outcome from the patient’s perspective. We don’t want to believe we are getting the best price for drugs because a bureaucrat claims to negotiate on our behalf with his cronies, we want to know that we get the best price in drugs because they are sold in a competitive market where companies are rivals for the business of patients.
A) you may be unconscious B) you may not know anything that would allow you to differentiate ER facilities C) you almost certainly have no information on the current wait times at an ER facility, let alone specific physicians on call D) you may be unaware of the intersection between your insurance and hospital choice (for example, I had insurance once that only covered care at a (very fine, major urban) hospital that was unable to treat my amputation accident).
So really ... just no.
If you're going to start dismissing the fact that smart people have written smart stuff on a topic by saying that we revise what is considered smart, then I'd just do the same in reverse, and say that none of the worldview/policy view that you're arguing for is supported by anyone worth paying attention to, since it's all just out of date and/or will be consigned to the trash heap of history very soon.
The books I am talking about are not "musty old volumes".
Here's Forbes from 2017: https://www.forbes.com/sites/chrisladd/2017/03/07/there-is-n...
Somewhat older, here's Krugman from 2009: https://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/25/why-markets-can...
Here's (supposedly) a libertarian on the problems in 2018: https://thehealthcareblog.com/blog/2018/08/02/a-libertarians...
And here's perhaps the oldest (recent) paper that got things rolling, "way back" in 1963: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2585909/
> In a basic simple mathematical way, fewer providers means less access to care.
That's a response to a completely inverted point. If there are already enough providers, then more providers doesn't mean more access to care (certainly not based on access to providers, rather than cost).
> The problem is that things like social planning of healthcare provision are evidently flawed in every respect due to the belief that they can’t be trusted to markets.
You're on the edge of a no true scotsman argument here, which means I'm going to bed.
I guess the true libertarian answer is that we don't really need certification at all, or that anyone should be able to start their own certification board. Like Rand Paul and his fake ophthalmology board he started to give himself credentials.
Nothing is ever libertarian enough until we've removed all the regulations and let quacks practice medicine, is it?
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/thanks-to-doctors-there-a...
Calling it libertarian shows you know nothing about either healthcare regulation or libertarianism.
In general, the US has a problem where it pretends to love free markets, but when you look under the hood there's horrific regulatory capture and crony capitalism.
The NHS was to an extent a statistical fluke (right politician in the right place, just post-WWII) that the right wing has been trying to dismantle for decades, without WW2 I’d be surprised if we had anything like the NHS.
Basically you need politicians to ignore the lobbyists and do their job of regulating this shit for a better society.
Sadly I don’t see it happening though there are some hopeful trends.
We need a lot of doctors, more than what we are producing. It's baffling you need 100s of thousands of dollars to become a Dr in the US.
Remove the undergrad requirement to apply for med school, like most of the world, and fix the college affordability problems.
If the amount of money to produce doctors keeps escalating, it's not surprising medical care only goes up.
Even with those problems we spend about half per capita on healthcare with about equal outcomes, also the US gov in one form or another already foots about 50% of the bill itself.
> Results The UK spent the least per capita on healthcare in 2017 compared with all other countries studied (UK $3825 (£2972; €3392); mean $5700), and spending was growing at slightly lower levels (0.02% of gross domestic product in the previous four years, compared with a mean of 0.07%). The UK had the lowest rates of unmet need and among the lowest numbers of doctors and nurses per capita.
https://www.bmj.com/content/367/bmj.l6326
They do more for less with less and mostly do it well.
Compare that to any other major country and it’s good, compared to the US system it’s very good.
Does the US have amazing doctors, hell yeah of course but do they have a fair system when on average everyone gets what they need if not always what they want, I’d argue no.
During the war the US froze wages in order to try and prevent skyrocketing salaries due to the extreme demand for labor.
To compete, most employers started offering generous benefit packages in lieu of the raises they were no longer able to offer.
After the war, the larger employers found that the generous benefit packages were more cost-effective at retaining employees compared to higher pay, so they became "fans" if you will, and have supported the employer-based benefit programs in the US ever since.
One concise reference: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/05/upshot/the-real-reason-th...
The Australian private insurance system also works like that. Private insurers have to offer pre-defined tiers with pre-defined coverage.
The average American has $432,000 in net assets, is the second richest in the world (behind Switzerland), and can trivially afford such an expense.
Did you mean that around 12-16% of the population can't afford an immediate out of pocket $400 expense? Because that's the real figure according to the Federal Reserve study that's constantly misquoted.
The median American has a higher net worth than either Germany or Sweden, and among the highest disposable income of any nation.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_...
The US is 22nd by median net wealth.
The US is the only "developed" country where 10 are uninsured: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_health_in...
Another N% are under insured, or hampered by high deductibles, copays, limits etc.
Whats the point of having a "high median net worth" if the basic needs of the people aren't met?
The US is including in their life expectancy data cases of stillbirths or nonviable fetuses at birth, which are not recorded in EU numbers, for example.
" measurement problems arise in international comparisons because the data are not consistently gathered or reported. Although the World Health Organization (WHO) has a formal definition of what should be included in the infant mortality statistics, anecdotal evidence suggests that countries do not use consistent practices in measuring these data (Haub and Yanagishita, 1991; Hartford, 1992). "
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4193257/
https://www.nber.org/bah/2015no1/why-infant-mortality-higher...
Healthcare in the US is a scam. There's no other way to look at it.
Because they don't have to pay for their education. Governments there recognize that having lots of doctors is a public good and don't saddle them with hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt from medical school.
Doctors aren't the ones who pay that medical school bill (if they get a job). It's their patients who pay the medical school bills.
The problem of medical expenses in the US is a very complex one. It's essentially at the nexus of a whole bunch of problems with our society. Higher education is too expensive. We have too many middlemen. Strong intellectual property laws make drugs and devices expensive. Patent laws make evergreening more profitable than innovation. Intense regulatory requirements for approval make competition very limited for pharmaceuticals. The government doesn't maintain control of the products resulting from the blue-sky R&D it funds. etc etc.
The US system is absolutely lousy with corruption and ends up diverting a large amount of money toward marketing which is rather baffling - whether a treatment is appropriate or not is a decision I'd rather my doctor made on the basis of efficacy - not because one of the companies had a catchy jingle or because one of them recently took him out to lunch.
Hospital administration does cost a fair amount, but be careful here - it's like education - some of those administrators have moved up the seniority chain to positions where they essentially do nothing and get paid for having their ass in a chair - but a lot of that administration goes to fighting against the extremely aggressive tactics of insurers and manufacturers. While those administrators would ideally be unnecessary due to better regulations being in place they do provide justifiable savings for the hospital (it's cheaper than not having them in many cases) under the current system.
It's all really complicated and murky.
Pharma companies enjoy a profit margin averaging 26%, medical device companies 12%, and hospital groups (which includes non-profits) 8%. Insurance companies are closer to 3%.
https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/healthcare/reports/2...
A lot of countries have much better health systems, with people fully insured (this is really designed for people who are underinsured), with significantly better outcomes, than the US. The US lifespan is also significantly trailing compared to other developed countries, and we are not a “normal” country at all. It’s going to be more appalling by 2040.
Anyways, the place to study this data and information is https://www.HealthData.org
You can spend hundreds of hours studying the data on that website, along with extreme specifics about medical care. I used it to inform my decision of where to live in Europe with rare immune mediated neurological diseases and type 1 diabetes.